Star or Phelps

[TDO'NEILL]

What is the difference between a Star and Phelps reloader. Were they different companys? How can you tell the difference if the lablel is missing?

[starrel]

Great question!

Star Reloaders should have the Star Machine Works San Diego, Calif. and Patent number stamped on the tool head. I have heard reports of some Star tool heads finding their way onto clones, and some clone tool heads with Star decals.

Phelps, Berdan, and a host of other companies copied Star's design. Many are reported to have used "inferior" manufacturing processes and to have taken their dimensions from worn/used Star parts. Manufacturing based on inaccurate original dimensions, a cheapest bid manufacturer, and small production runs introduces variations that often require parts be modified to fit together and make the individual machines work. This may seem fine until you need to replace a part or interchange parts with another reloader and you realize the parts are all custom. Additionally, parts that are designed to be modified to fit need to be workable and will not have the hardness of Star's parts that were precision made and heat treated to quality standards established and maintained over decades of manufacturing experience.

I have limited information on the Phelps and Berdan products but what's available is in the Album link at the top of the forum. It may help you spot differences based on the specifications they reference and the pictures they provided in brochures. Most of the clone companies sought to "improve" the powder magazines, handle, etc. It has been reported that Phelps quality depends on where and when the tool was made.

Accessories for powder magazines, adjustable powder slides, Hulme case feeders, Freeloader, and others were marketed to work with Star and Phelps.

Star survived the clones with untarnished quality standards for over 60 years. The copy-cats never seem to gain much reputation worth speaking kindly about.

If someone has first hand experience with a clone, I would like to hear more about it. I know of one person that got a good Phelps and it has stood up to years and years of volume reloading and is still going. Another has sold original Star parts and the buyers discovered they would not fit their clone.

Caution goes to anyone that relies on a decal, blue paint or polished brass and steel to identify a Star or it's condition. There are disreputable people willing to apply blue paint, decals and elbow grease to gussie up an item to sell as a Star reloader. Several clones have appeared on eBay and it pays to take a few steps back and ask hard questions about the details and wonder about anything that is unusual or out of place. Hopefully you will learn to spot a combination of things that just make the package not look right.

Better safe than suckered. Find someone that's been using their Star tool for years and years and shoots what they reload with good results. It's a great way to find a Star and someone to stand for the quality.

Good luck and happy reloading, on your Star!

[Ross Chesley]

Hi everyone,

A similar question appeared on the Bullseye listserv over the weekend. Someone asked if there was a difference between the Star and Phelps machines as someone has a Phelps for sale and the suggestion was floated that it was a "Star Made by Phelps".

Considering the replies, it is safe to conclude that there are people happy with their Phelps, and many that do not know the difference between a Star and a Phelps. Hopefully we can shed some light on the differences in this topic.

I first did a search on eBay to locate the item for sale. I usually receive notifications of all eBay items Star related and this one is eBay item # 3651383020. The post has quite a few pictures to show wear and other factors. Note it does not specify the brand of dies. I believe Phelps claimed Carboloy for their dies but there is no detail to specify it in the auction info. The seller incorrectly calls it a Star Progressive made by Phelps. If it was a Star it would be a Universal because of the #79U locating straps. Phelps called this a Deluxe. All in the details, a Phelps does not smell as sweet because it is not a Star!

The differences are not obvious unless you spend countless hours Star-gazing. A side by side photo comparison would be helpful , so I am going to do it as soon as I have a moment to take apart my Star Universal and snap similar pics to the ones on the auction.

Diff #1: Star Machine Works stamped Star Machine Works into the tool head steel right above where the cases enter the shell plate. If it does not have this stamp, it is definitely not a Star tool head. The Phelps does not have any name stamped, but there appear to be some numbers and letters stamped instead. Any info on what they represent would be helpful.

Diff #2: The Phelps pictures on the eBay item show that the tool head does not have an extended rim on the underside where it rides the column shaft. I will post pictures for comparison. The extra steel Star put in this area provides a greater surface area on the column shaft.

Diff #3: The #79U Shell Base Locating Straps on the Phelps unit are rounded at the top edge. The Star has a nice tight edge to match the steel floor base.

Diff #4: The notches where #79U attach are wider at the top on the Phelps. Star has the notches in the Steel Floor Base tight to the Locating Straps.

Diff #5: The #14 Shell Plate Thrust Nut is a narrow knurled band on the Phelps. On Stars, the knurling is completed to the full thickness of the nut.

Diff #6: The #62 Crank Shaft Assembly end on the Phelps is extended on the handle side and contains a hex set screw internal to the threaded hole to lock the lever handle in place. Star has a threaded hole that contains an external nut (square head) to fix the handle.

Diff #7: Not fully shown in the auction, the lever hande is different between Star and Phelps. Phelps has a blue steel handle that is straight and ends in a black plastic ball. Star handles are bare polished steel, have a specific outward bend/offset and a tapered wooden handle with chrome ferrule.

More posts will follow as more information is available on this subject. I will copy the auction pictures to post and use for the comparison after the auction closes.  Hopefully we'll learn to identify more about the copies so we can spot them for what they are and not mistake them for a Star-made reloader.

The design of the Phelps is very similar to the Star since it was copied from Star. On close inspection there are changes that appear subtle until you put them side-by-side and compare. Some owners claim the parts work fine and are interchanged with a Star, others say they do not interchange. Advice: Do not purchase a Phelps with plans to have interchange of parts and you will not be disappointed if they do not fit. The market for Phelps and the value of these seems largely dependant on fooling buyers into thinking they are Star reloaders. Star reloaders command higher prices because they are proven to outlast the original owner with proper maintenance. They were made for over 60 years with quality and the reputation that outlasted the original Star Machine Works of San Diego.

Thanks,


Ross

[Thomas Maddaloni]

I purchase a star machine from star in 1988.The base platestraps #79u or rounded at the top and the base palte notch is wider. I still have the bill from star, I purchase this machine new. Can this base be a phelps that star sold me,the machine has all the pat. numbers on it.
 
                                                     Tom Maddaloni

[Ross Chesley]

The following link contains the pictures in a side-by-side for comparison.

http://forum.starreloaders.com/images/Star-Phelps.html

Tom, I know Star changed things over 60 years of production. Thanks for giving me this opportunity to say that the comparison is based on details from my known Star Universals and the Phelps listed on eBay plus their sales materials in the forum's Photo Album Archive.

I have several two-piece aluminum bases and one single casting base. Most of my tool heads have a radius cut on the front of the lower link pin lug above the #15/#21 Shell Resizing Die/De-capping Pin Assembly station, and the top where the Star decal lives is fully machined. One Tool Head does not have the extra machining or the radius cut. These variations in production and manufacturing -- appear to have occurred over time and may have been due to changes in tooling, manufacturing/materials , or a combination of these or other factors.

I recommend looking at more than one detail before making an identification. Pictures and observations are to help with recognition and too many differences make me suspicious. If an original owner with original paperwork will stand by the machine as a Star, will demonstrate and support a buyer, then there is less concern. A typical auction sale's validation consists of asking the seller questions they may not be able to answer and asking them to take more pictures. :wink:

I am not critical of Phelps to make the comparison between a Phelps on eBay and known Star Universals. It would be great to have a library of Star images that include details of parts and the date of the purchase direct from Star or a Star dealer to see the changes. Star did not provide serial numbers or date references so only original owners will have the details to document this.

If someone is decided to purchase a Phelps there is no need for me to say anything about it -- the decision is formed. If someone was told a Phelps is the same thing as a Star or was made by Star, I have some things for them to consider. If they value the Phelps thinking it is a Star and believing parts will be completely interchangeable, this could be of assistance in their decision.  


Ross

[Kenneth L. Walters]

The Phelps was started in New Jersey.  Simple a star copy.  Star could not make enough machine to meet demand so Phelps copied the Star.  By the time I found the Phelps company it was literally a basement enterprise done by, if memory serves, Dan Fausto.  He'd assemble a few when he had the time.  I don't know if he made the various parts or contracted out the work.

Like Berdon, Phelps had a rifle unit.  Longer central shaft.  Powder system was manual.  That's exactly how Berdon did it.  I talked to Fausto several times.  This was meant to be a business after he retired.  Fireman I think.  Never got serious about it.

Berdon made reeds for clarinets.  Why he though branching out into making a star copy was a good idea I have no clue.  He bought a star, miked it and made a copy.  Very few were produced.

Neither the Phelps nor Berdon were all that great.  They weren't terribly awful but not that great either.

True Star copies were made by Phelps, Berdon, Willis (I'd have to look that up) and probably a firm in Australia.  Star based machines were made by CPM (who first had the idea that lead to RCBS's current piggyback progressive line), Dillon and maybe other (I'm getting forgettful).  CPM, of course, stood for Clyde Products Manufacturing.  They started out like in Clyde Ohio but later moved to the large town of Norwalk just up the road.

None of the copies nor near copies, and at one time I owned all but the Willis, were anywhere's near as good as the Star.

Star, of course, made a straight, a non-Universal, a Universal, a Universal using 7/8x14 dies, a Universal expanded to handle 223's and a true rifle machine.  The later they originally made under pressure from the Army who wanted to use give them to the locals in Cambodia.

[Kenneth L. Walters]

P.S.  Star's list of calibers was longer than I've seen here.  I'm pretty sure, for example, that I had one in 30 Mauser.

[1 CADOO]

I have a phelps in 45 acp.Bought it from the original owner...who keep in in excellent condition,as I do.
It's been 2 years and aprox.4,000 rounds loaded. I'm I missing something Once every station is loaded with brass I pull the lever & out comes a loaded round ..I load then in my 1911 or S&W Model 25 and I get
a nice tight group. Small differences in manufacturing don't make a big difference in performance of the end product. I'm not old enough to have used a bad phelps or for that matter a star unit but if I do I will post it for everyone to know.
My 2cent