moon unit indexer

[NYKenn]

Bruce;;

Educate me.
I understand the "feel" you mention. I too notice a probelm (such as a high primer, or powder buildup) by hand turning, that you would not see with an indexer.
But; would you not notice (or hear) a plate alignment, binding, or scraping problem? I would think they would cause problems in operation with an indexer even if not felt would be seen or heard.
If it were the brass case, damage if any at all should be minimal as brass is a much softer material?

[Star73]

Kenn,
I only recently started using my indexers. As far as feel, most of what has been mentioned I can tell from the "feel" &  sound of the equipment. Every one will develop their preferences in using these reloaders. There is probably not a right or wrong way w/ most of the add ons. The users preference sand then method & equipment which tells  him what id happening is the "correct" method.

The rate of around 400 w/o the indexer compared to my rate of 300 + is an illustration. Recently I have observed a noticeable reductionin my prod capability. I am fortunate to still be using them & what they produce!! I find it interesting & instructive to hear the experiences & techniques of others.

Ron

[rbwillnj]

Kenn & Ron,

I think when ever you change something in your set up, you have to relearn the feel of he equipment and adjust your techniques.  Point in case;

I recently switched from a Star Safety Cam/Case Ejector to Ray's case ejector on my 45 ACP machine.   With the Star unit I used to have to tap the case in the taper crimp station to make sure it was fully seated in the shell plate before pulling the handle.  It was a motion that became second nature.  With Ray's unit, I don't have to do that motion, the case is always fully seated in the shell plate. 

However, the Star ejector is actuated by a case coming out of the Hulme case feeder.  If the case doesn't come out, no case is ejected from the taper crimp station.  I had gotten to where I would listen for the finished round ejecting, and if I didn't hear it, I would check to see if the case feeder had jammed.  With Ray's unit, I often find that there is no case in the sizing station after I pull the handle.  I no longer have to tap the round in the taper crimp station, but I have to check that I have a case in the sizing station before I pull the handle.

[Star73]

Bruce & Ken,

 It's interesting to hear the nuances involved in the use of these machines by various operators.  I'm confined to a wheelchair and have seriously deteriorating shoulders form their (over)use over the yrs. Star being a benchtop machine is much more convenient. The indexers allow for one handed operation while the off hand is used to steady myself. Just makes life easier. I'm not sure my production is much faster than without. Surprisingly the biggest gain was from the setup to auto-eject.

I too have observed that changes to the machine setup are noticeable to the operator and are well worth giving attention to!

My universal has seen use since 1973 & I notice more jams, rounds loaded w/o primers, etc, than some yrs ago. I don't know if it's me, if I tend to miss some of the little things, or I just don't remember! maybe the latter as my scores haven't kept pace w/ my age!

Ron

[NYKenn]

I understand that, It makes sense that not everything is for speed, etc., but for ease of use. This actually makes more sense than simply doing so to load XX more per hour.

I have not noticed any decline in the quality of my reloads. (missed primers, etc.) Machine is circa 1965, but has been maintained. Cleaned when needed, never forced, not abused. I think that makes a difference in their longevity. Only time I experienced some problems, that I can recall is when I changed something. Differant primers, brass, etc., and all were short term.

Certainly, the main componet is knowing the feel of your particular machine. That alone will lesson the problems.
I wonder how many people learned the hard way. Starting to reload, doing a few hundred in a few hours, only to find a problem after the fact, instead of before.

Kenn

[NYKenn]

PS.
How did the counter workout?

[Joatmon]

Bruce, That is an impressive amount of wear on the top of that base.  Perhaps that was the situation on the machine that I referred to earlier, just too many rounds.  I think that even though the steel is much harder than brass, the endless process of cycling cases (possibly dirty or with a film of grit) would eventually cause significant wear on the base.  Do you think it would be possible to "true up" the top of that plate by removing (possibly by endmill) just a few thousands of an inch of material (5-10)around the perimeter?  Setting the base up on a knee mill with a small rotary table to make the circle would not be too difficult.  I am not aware if this part is hardened prior to assembly.  If the base was heat treated or surface hardened it may be a moot point.   Just curious if this had been considered. 

I also have been intrigued by the prospect of more automation on the Star given that so many companies in the past (now present) have designed aftermarket accessories to speed the process.  I have always wondered why Star did not pursue any of their own designs for this purpose.  They certainly must have had the machinist capability in their shop.  Anyone have inside information about this?
John

[rbwillnj]

John,   I don't think you could just mill down the surface and have it work.  Remember the primer slide.  If you mill down the surface, the primer slide would probably sit proud of the new surface.   You might be able to weld the worn areas and then mill the welded areas down to match the original surface.   Fortunately, I didn't have to worry about it.   I was able to find another base to use in rebuilding the reloader.  The pictured base has been assigned to the scrap pile.

I have read several accounts about Star and indexers.  From what I have read, Star tested several designs, but elected not to adopt or recommend any of them because of concerns about wear to the base.

[Joatmon]

Bruce, You are right, I was not thinking about the primer slide.  That approach certainly would not work. The only feasible workaround would seem to be base replacement.  What were the indexing characteristics of that machine?  Was it loose at the index points, or hard to rotate with shells in the plate because they would catch at those deep wear areas? 

I am not what you would probably call a high volume reloader (based on the numbers that some competitive shooters are used to), perhaps this will not be a problem that I have to deal with.  I do have a 38 spl progressive that is a bit stiff to index and there is some wear on the top of the plate that I have noticed.  I only comment because another machine next to it has a more smooth and positive feel when hand indexing.  The large locking nut on the main shaft is set to the same level (snug and then back off 1/4 turn).  Sorry if this thread has drifted a bit off topic.
John

[Star73]

Bruce,
 Any idea as to the nmber of rounds loaded before wear is experienced in the base?
Thanks,
Ron

[rbwillnj]

Ron,

No idea on the number of rounds.   It came to me in that condition.  The machine looked to be in good condition otherwise.

Joatman,

With the wear indentations, the rim of the case tends to catch on the depression.  If it gets too bad, you can't advance the shell plate unless you lift the cartridge so that if clears the indentation.   In mild cases, you can use a Dremel with an abrasive wheel (graytex) to smooth out the edge of the indentation so that the rim of the case won't catch on it.

I don't think this is just an indexer issue.   I think it has more to do with volume.   On my personal 45 ACP machine, I probably load 10,000 rounds per year, and I see no wear of this type at all.

[Joatmon]

Bruce, Thanks for the information and the insight.  I may try a bit of "polishing" like you suggest on the top of the base if I think it is getting to be a problem.  With just a few thousand rounds a year throught this machine I hope that I will not have to deal with it.  I did notice that there was a town name and the initials P.D. on the bottom of the case feeder, so this one may have had some history of loading lots of rounds for some police department.  I think this kind of history associated with the Star reloaders is one of the reasons that I like using them.  Of course I always tend to like using older tools (of any kind!!).  Cheers.

John

[Ray Brandes]

Indexers and kickers are back in stock:
http://www.bullybarrel.ray-vin.com/frindexer.htm
http://www.bullybarrel.ray-vin.com/frejector.htm
Regards, Ray in FLA

[ARTINCT]

Hi Gang:
I have just installed both the Moon Unit Indexer and the Moon Unit Case Kicker from Ray Brandes.

To say I am highly pleased with these two products from Ray is a gross understatement.  First off, the web site Ray has fashioned is top notch.  Ray has some Utube videos for each tool.  The case kicker video is top notch and shows installation and adjustment techniques.  The indexer video just shows the indexer at work.  I hope some day Ray can do a full length video of installation and adjustment for that product as well.

The case kicker installed quickly and worked flawlessly almost from the get go on my 45 ACP Star Universal.  A really nice product with a wonderful matte finish in a gray parkerized type patina.

The indexer is just slightly more complex to install and adjust but is well worth the effort.  The index bar only touches or presses against/upon the cartridge case and thus will NOT cause any undo wear or harm to the shell plate.  I just had to adjust the indexer to fully push the case from the resize station to the prime station and this adjustment was rather simple to effect.  The indexer also is finished in the gray matte parkerized finish.  

The only downside of the indexer would possibly be that it would have to be loosened up, taken off and readjusted if you changed machine heads or shell plates or required a major cleaning.  But then that is not really any big deal to be honest with you and it would allow you to clean and lube the indexer.  I now have about 500 rounds of 45 ACP loaded using the indexer and cannot see why I would want to run a Star without one.

I have ordered two more complete systems indexer/kicker systems from Ray for my 9mm and 38 special Stars.

A tip of the old hat to Ray for providing such fine machine tools.  The case kicker is a marvel to watch and the spring mechanism is perfect and ingenious.

Thanks Ray!

[shooter2]

Does anyone have a moon indexer and a case kicker for sale?
Ray Bandies is out of stock and is not making any more. Call me at 209 887 9184                 Thanks Ed