Indexer

[lukasboy]

Hello Everyone, Now this isn't to start any discussion for criticism of any brand of indexer, but several years ago I spoke with a star employee (his name escapes me) but we had a discussion about indexers. His response was that due to there inherit design (pushing on the brass) thereby pushing the brass forward that the leading edge of the case head put (although slight) pressure on the base causing additional wear on the base plate. Please be aware I am not criticizing any current indexers but posted this for discussion and thought and historic comment from a star employee just may be of interest. Every time I look at my star loaders and bullet sizer I dream of craftsman performing works of art that saddens me to some degree, my Father was a tool and die maker, wish I paid more attention to his work when I had the opportunity.

[rbwillnj]

I think this is what you are referring to.   I have rebuilt 50+ Star and Phelps machines and have come across several with damage caused by use of an indexer.   The picture below (which I posted earlier) is probably one of the worst cases.  I think that the machines with this sort of wear were probably used by commercial reloaders have probably been used to reload many hundreds of thousands of rounds.......but who knows.

This past summer I found a good welder and had him TIG weld the damaged areas.   I then machined the welded areas down to the original surface and reblued the base.   The technique has promise.   Below is a picture of the same base after repair.

[rbwillnj]

Bad base after repair.

[tony barone]

I purchased the MA System indexer when I bought my machine from Star in 1986 and have loaded 200,000 rnds. on it. The base is still relatively good  probably because I've never deprimed on it and the indexer doesn't seemed to have induced any wear. I just got another MA system indexer from E-Bay, why I don't know as they never wear out.

[rbwillnj]

The MA System Indexer has a hook that pulls on the shell plate to index the round.  Based on the way the MA Systems indexer works, I wouldn't think it would cause any wear. 

The Brewster and most of the other indexers push on the case, tipping it back a little as its pushed to the next location.   The wear grove is where the back edge of the rim contacts the base as its being pushed along.    However I'm sure it takes a lot of rounds to produce that kind of wear.

[johnfreeman]

The base is still relatively good  probably because I've never deprimed on it and the indexer doesn't seemed to have induced any wear.

Hi Tony

Why would the depriming be a problem? Is it from the junk that falls out of a dirty primer pocket?

Thanks
John

[cc656d]

The primer compound is abrasive , in part because it has glass in it.

[333OKH]

I don't think the average guy is going to wear out the base.

[Welsh Rifleman]

My understanding is that you need 3 primary conditions to have wear between two surfaces.....contact, force and relative motion.  We obviously have all 3 when we rotate the shell plate.  If we rotate the shell plate by "pushing" against one of the cases with an indexer or with our finger....we are creating the relative motion and the force resulting from the "pushing" action in both cases.  And in both cases, the case would "tilt" forward probably resulting in some "point" loading on the forward end of the case rim.  Of course any abrasive substances between the two surfaces would increase the wear pattern....e.g. gunpowder, primer residue, dirty cases, etc.  I believe that the biggest culprit in the wear patterns that Bruce pictured is a very high volume with a poor cleaning routine if any cleaning at all.

[gilmarc1974]

GLAD TO SEE THIS DEBATE ON INDEXERS  HAVE USED A AN INDEXER FOR WELL OVER 30yrs and have never had this happen to any of my machines and have loaded well over 75.000 rounds on them  maybe i am missing something here maybe cleaning the machines more often would help.  JUST SAYING

  GILMARC1974

[tony barone]

I deprime and under size the cases on a 550 with a case feeder. The 550 gets pretty grimy after awhile and I very seldom have to clean the Star. I'll load 1000 rounds on the Star and just have to remove any residual powder with compressed air and the machine is clean. They don't make Stars anymore and whoever gets mine it will last their lifetime.

[NYKenn]

Between my father buying the Star (circa 1966) and myself, we have conservatively loaded over 500,000 rounds in .45, .38, and I recently added 9mm and .45LC. to the mix.  Never felt the need for an Indexor or case feeder, as production and speed was more than sufficient. No wear to speak of on base, and press is still going strong. 

[cc656d]

Ditto on the half million rounds , mainly 45 and no wear except the bluing. No indexer and occasional cleaning.
If you are going to load 10X ammo speed is not an option. If you want speed buy a Camdex.

[tony barone]

Loading 500,000 rounds on a manual machine is quite an accomplishment.

[Welsh Rifleman]

I am really enjoying the discussion and comments from different perspectives.  I find that after many years of shooting, I am now enjoying the equipment set up, experimentation and calibration, etc. more than cranking out the rounds.  Always focusing on the repeat-ability, uniformity and performance of each round. One attraction of the Star is that there are so many variables from the very basic fundamental set up to the fully automated.....to the many combinations in between.

For example, this topic of "Indexers" has lead us from..."reasons to use or not to use"......"which one of the various versions should we use"....."if we use one how do we manage the maintenance"....etc. etc. etc.

As I got older, I discovered that I was enjoying the planning and preparing for the "hunting trip".....more enjoyable than the "hunt".  Over many years of deer hunting in Texas, I went from long range bolt action rifles, to single shot rifles, to black powder cartridges, to muzzle loaders, to compound bows, to primitive recurves, to staying at home by the fire and talking about it.

As I reached a relative comfort zone on each method, I moved on....because I really think I enjoyed the new challenge of getting ready for the activity more than I enjoyed the activity.  My introduction to the Star over the past couple of years has provided many opportunities to discover and experiment and never get bored.  Ain't it fun?