Author Topic: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231  (Read 67504 times)

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bummer7

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Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2008, 11:28:49 pm »
I agree with you the wall thickness is different for each brand.  Generally, I have not had a problem with mixed brass.  The one time I encountered a problem was a batch of brass a friend gave me.  It was all the same make and once-fired as he did not reload.  But what you say about mixing brass does make me stop and think. 

While I mark my brass out of habit, I find few if any other competitors with 38spl on the line.  Of the other calibers, I see more 32 than 38s.  Ocassionaly, Someone will have a S&W Model 52 but I seldom see another 1911-38.

Speaking of unsupported barrels; are you referring the the underside of the barrel in front of the ramp?  Where there is no support for the chambered round?  If yes, have you thought about replacing the barrel with another?  I think Kart makes a fully supported 38spl barrel for the 1911 that fixes this issue. 

Back to using ww231 powder - 231 is a good powder.  Is there any other powders you've tried and found acceptable? 

-s

Star73

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Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2008, 11:51:33 pm »
starman,
don't recall the headstamp but have had some that very noticeably bulge the case after seating.  have had the best results with winchester. as a vol ro i get a lot of it from shooters who buy ammo at walmart. for 25 yd time rapid have been much less selective...thanks for the info!
ron

rbwillnj

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Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2008, 09:27:47 am »
The older Clark barrels, and for that matter the barrels of most of the others who made 38 Special 1911s have the ramp integral to the chamber leaving a portion of the case unsupported.   No problem till you get a double charge then it blows out the bottome of the case, blows out the magazine and the grip panels.   I have seen it happen.   Fortunately the owner wasn't hurt, just got a scare and some blackened hands.   Newer Clark barrels have a Nowlin/Clark ramp with a corresponding cut in the frame.

I have a 70's era Clark 38 Special Heavy Slide 1911 that had the older style barrel.  A couple years ago I had a squib during last shot of the first string of rapid fire.  The gun functioned normally except it stove piped that case.  I didn't think anything of it and continued with the second string.   I actually ended up with 10 on the paper, but two shots were not where I called them.  I also ended up with a nice ring in my barrel and the accuracy went to He%#.    I sent it back to Clark and they installed a new ramped barrel and charged $450.  When they sent it back they had installed a 5# recoil spring.   I reinstalled an 8# spring and that seems to work better for me.

I use 2.7 grains of 700X under a Remmington HBWC.  I have also used 3.1 grains of 231 and 2.7 grains of Bullseye, all of which give about the same results.   I have a frame mounted red dot.  I'm a big believer in finding the load that gives the best accuracy in your gun, then tune the gun to work with that load by changing recoil springs.   Having said that, I think it's a lot harder to do that with a slide mounted dot on a 38 Special than it is with a 45.   The previous owner of my Clark had a slide mounted dot, and he never did get it to function with 100% reliability.   He had Clark install their frame bridge.

 
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starman

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Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2008, 05:59:36 pm »
I got a Clark  Long slide but with the mini rib it was built in the 60 it has a little ramp on the fram for a guide works great. I got a S&W 6inch 38 sp. barrel for the 1911 in one gun and the barrel is not suported the brass will not last as long I see a little bulge as the brass gets a few reloads so I do keep that brass buy it self. Kart makes a 38 sp barrel but if I remember it is .3555 not .357 no problem as long as you know. Years ago a friend who I shoot with had a 32 WC barrel for the 1911 it was 6 inch he got it from Don Nygard. fred Kart was going to come out with a kit in 32 WC but never did. I wanted one,  he said had problems mag or some thing. Hay this was fun talking about the good old days. Pat   Kalifornia

Star73

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Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2008, 02:22:43 pm »
You're right about the limitations in load selection w/ the slide mt'd dot. That's what stopped my load development with clays. Apparently the pressure curve won't allow the use of enough pdr for positive functioning. I have much more confidence in the slide mounts though. The BE load of 2.75 works it fine. I'm really surprised Clark uses a 5# spring. I had the almost identical experience w/ a squib load ringing the barrel. My 'smith checked accuracy & says it's OK. I have shot 187' SF & 199's RF since. Wish it wasn't occasional & was in a match!!

Are the Nowlin/Clark's the only supported 38 barrel?

Have any of you seen the "gas guns" offered out of New Philadelphia Ohio? They did have a 1911 .32 gas operated. Not sure if the .32 is still offered.

Ron
« Last Edit: August 19, 2008, 02:34:42 pm by Star73 »

Star73

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Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2008, 02:29:08 pm »
Starman,
I started shooting in ' 68 w/ at the same time as another new club member. 2-3 yrs later he bought a pair of Clark long slide, min-ribbed 1911's in .38 & 45. They were in a small 3 gun box w/ fancy cover. Buckheimer? He's gone now & was bit tight lipped about his deals. I've often wondered what happened to those guns. I shot the 38 & I'd only shot std wt 45's to that point. What a different feel!

About the same time a shooter came to our winter league w/ a 38 special 1911 which he said was a Clark He offered it for sale for $165 &

rbwillnj

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Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2008, 04:01:12 pm »
As far as I know, Clark is the only one still making a 38 Special 1911, and their price has gone up to $2695.  That kinda tells me that they don't want any orders.

Storm Lake made the barrel that Clark put in my gun.   I don't know if you can buy one directly from Storm Lake or if its just custom manufactured for Clark.  Also, I don't know if Kart still makes them, they are not listed in Brownells or Midway.

The Storm Lake barrel has a tighter chamber than my original barrel, and seems to be tapered.  I had to change to a taper crimp to get the cartridge to drop all the way into the chamber.  I think the main reason for this is that I use the Remington HBWC with are really oversized.   You have to really expand the case to get them started, and the roll crimp just didn't take out of of the bell.......but I never had a problem with my old barrel.

I have slide mounts on my 45s, but I think the frame mount is the way to go with 38 Special.
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starman

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Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2008, 07:05:10 pm »
the old 38 sp Clark barrels were 2 peace I have one and if you look real close you can see 38 super colt on the hood, have you seen that one?

Star73

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Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
« Reply #23 on: August 19, 2008, 08:24:53 pm »
Starman,
"the old 38 sp Clark barrels were 2 peace I have one and if you look real close you can see 38 super colt on the hood, have you seen that one?"

My understanding is the pistolsmiths who did the 38 conversions simply rechambered the 38 super colts & accurizing the gun. Not so long ago I purchased a Giles 38 conv. It was in nearly new condition, had Giles sights & slide & brl marked 38 super. It had a new colt ss 38 super mag, the store owner acquired it sans mag & had no idea what it was.

I'm not sure who all did these conversions. The store had a HS with the only ID being an S on the bushing. Possibly Shockey. Shockey did them as they were iffered in Gil Hebard's catalogue circa 190's. Many of them were "Colt Kit Guns" which apparently Colt sold to the AMU & various pistolsmiths. They were unassembled guns oversized in critical areas so a target gun could be built more readily. They were in 46 & 38 super.

Recently I purchased a rusty 1911 magazine which was modified by John Giles to feed the 38 special. I cleaned it up and with some tweaking found it did the job. He had reshaped the follower & made 2 sawcuts on the right & 1 on the left to form "lips". The sides of the mags were reshaped using a grinder. I bought it out of curiosity & feel I can modify mags now if needed.

This info is what I have gleaned over the yrs & I make no claim to having "superior or special knowledge". I have heard various versions re the above but this seems the most likely.

I shot BE for many yrs using only the .22 & .45, however I had a fascination with the 38 1911. I was advised the 38 had no advantage & I would be best served to concentrate on mastering the .45. Now,  my scores have fallen to the point a diversion has little effect.

All this is interesting....as they say "those were the days".

Ron

Star73

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Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2008, 08:33:56 pm »
As far as I know, Clark is the only one still making a 38 Special 1911, and their price has gone up to $2695.  That kinda tells me that they don't want any orders

"rbw"
I recently overheard a conversation at the range the gist of which was that a customer called Clark to have a 38 special built & they said they are obsolete you should get a 9mm. Of course this is 2nd hand info, BUT considering their price went to $2695 from $1895 it makes sense & gives weight to your posit.

One of the members here, 2150, recently acquired a Shockey 38 Super accurized for BE. He might like to jump in here with what he has learned about this cal & his comments re the 38's.

fascinating stuff!

Ron

CDRT

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Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
« Reply #25 on: August 19, 2008, 11:13:48 pm »
Yep, Clark Jr. does not like to make .38 Specials, that's why the price went up.  Clark Sr. built mine back in 1982.  Mine has a "Colt .38 Special Kit" barrel...that's how it's marked on the top.  Of course, mine has the std 5" barrel and is not a Long Slide.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2008, 08:14:46 am by CDRT »
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starman

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Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
« Reply #26 on: August 19, 2008, 11:57:58 pm »
I have a Clark 38 sp barrel that says if you look close colt 38 super  it could not be a 38 super barrel reworked to 38 sp. it is 6 inch long. and I have never seen a colt 6 inch barrel. So it must be a two piece barrel. this is from the 1960. I got a few Old Clark mag that he converted to 38 sp one is 38 super and two are 10 mm mags. They do work great.

Star73

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Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
« Reply #27 on: August 20, 2008, 09:13:37 pm »
Starman,
Can we post pics here? Or maybe you could send pics direct to me? Very interested in how those mags were done.Do you think the 6" is a Douglas sramped Colt 45 auto? I think he used them later in the 60's. How woud a 2 piece be made? Cut the chamber portion from the Colt 5", bore it & silver solder a turned, press fit 6" in it?  A lot of work

Ron

starman

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Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
« Reply #28 on: August 20, 2008, 11:22:16 pm »
the clark mags looks like some work to do one has two cuts down the side and the other does not but they do works just fine I did take a 38 super mag and copy the Clark the one that does not have the cuts and I got is to work just fine, little bit of work but you can do it. I have 5 Colt 38 sp mag that work just fine if you see how they are made a lot of engineering went into them but that was the good old days. On two peace barrels it looks like a lot of work and Im not sure how they did put them togeath. I also got a HS 6 inch two peace in 45 acp I can see a little where it went together. I was told that Douglas made the Clark barrels. Does Clark still sell the 38 sp barrels? I do not see just the barrels.          Pat       Kalifornia

bummer7

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Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
« Reply #29 on: August 20, 2008, 11:29:20 pm »
Thanks for the great info!  I have one of the Colt 38spl kit barrels that were sold in the 60s.  The bottom is unsupported and yes, I have experienced one ruptured case in the 28+ years I have owned this gun.  It does have it's own brass supply that is kept separate from my revolver ammo.  One ruptured case was enough to convince me to limit how many times I reload it. 

If you like to see a couple of different style magazines, I posted pics at targettalk a few months back.   
http://targettalk.org/viewtopic.php?t=18641 
There are 3 different styles of 38spl mags. 

My next question is "does anyone have a Kart 38spl barrel installed?"  I like to learn more about the ramped design and what is required to retrofit my gun.   Plus, you mentioned the bore is .355   Isn't this a bit smaller than a standard .38/.357 bore?  Last, does anyone else other than Clark sell magazines for this gun?

-s