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Star Reloaders Discussion Forums => Loading Data & Reloading Procedures => Topic started by: Star73 on August 14, 2008, 03:58:11 pm

Title: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: Star73 on August 14, 2008, 03:58:11 pm
Can anyone provide the amount of 231 used in the 1911 converted to 38 special? I'm also interested in the type & amount of crimp.

I currently use 2.75 of bullseye & set the crimp by adjusting the seating die with a factory round inserted in that station.

Thanks!

Ron H
Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: bummer7 on August 14, 2008, 04:35:21 pm
Hi Ron,

I have been experimenting this summer with similar loads for my 1911-38spl.  With ww231 powder, I loaded 50 rounds each using 2.8gr, 2.9gr, and 3.0gr for testing.  The bullet used is a swaged 148gr HBWC bullet (Hornady).  So far, I found 2.8gr of 231 reliable, accurate, easy on the slide, and the brass landed within two feet of me.  The 3.0gr load seemed too hot for my recoil spring and slide setup.  Not only did the slide come back with a sharp movement but the brass flew several feet further away than I expected. 

Now waiting an opportunity to chronograph the 2.8gr of ww231 load.  My guess is it'll chrono at or about 700fps out of my gun.   

Tried both roll and taper crimp.  Prefer taper crimp out of the two. 

-s
Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: Star73 on August 14, 2008, 04:43:19 pm
Was there a difference in accuracy between roll & taper crimps? I have a slide mounted red dot so am using slightly more BE than those without.  What is your sight-slide setup?

Thanks,
Ron
Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: bummer7 on August 14, 2008, 06:36:51 pm
I did not notice any differences or improvement between the roll or taper crimp.  Nor did it seem to make a difference in feeding.  Both crimps fed well with no issues or problems related to crimp. 

I recently changed from over from a Bomar rib to a regular Bomar rear sight.  Installed a  new 10# Wolffe recoil spring and a spring guide was installed prior to testing. 

The gun was RR [no e-mail]@ 50yds and the test targets is a 10-shot 1.75" group using Federal Monarch ammunition. 

Hope this information helps.

Best regards,
-s
Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: starman on August 15, 2008, 05:01:11 pm
not to tell you what to do here but in the 38 sp clark  2.8 bull is the one you want, do not mix brass Win or Fed works best I think and you might want to slug the barrel you will be surprised on size go .0005 but no more than .001 over size. I have 3 1911 38 sp they are so fun to shoot Oh yes taper crimp for sure. if I can be of any help here let me know Pat   from   Kalifornia
Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: bummer7 on August 15, 2008, 08:36:06 pm
I agree 2.8gr of BE is a good load.  It shoots well in my revolvers and well known to be accurate load. 

My question to you is "have you tried 2.6gr, 2.7gr, and 2.9gr in your 1911-38spl?"  While I thought my test loads with 231 were pretty good; I started trying loads with 2.6gr and 2.7gr of BE finding this is more accurate than 2.8gr loads.  Now I wonder if its just my pistol or do others find this to be a good accurate load?   

BTW, is your Clark a long slide? 

-s 
Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: CDRT on August 16, 2008, 08:32:16 am
Just thought I'd join in the conversation:
I have a Clark Heavy Slide (not Long Slide).  I've tried loads between 2.7 BE and 3.0 BE.  The 2.7 load will shoot inch and half groups at 50 yards from a Ransom Rest.  The 3.0 load shoots three and a half inch groups.  The lighter powder charge is definitely more accurate.  The pistol also shoots the smaller group with Remington factory ammo (unfortunately, I only have two boxes left of it).

Up until last year I was roll crimping, but I picked up a taper crimp die and have used it since then.  I'm getting better feeding and fewer jams since I switched over.  I use Winchester brass, but have a couple ammo cans full of Remington and Federal for when the Winchester goes bad, which won't be any time soon.  Hardly ever have a case go bad with such a light load.

Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: bummer7 on August 16, 2008, 10:01:56 am
Good information to know!  Shooting 2.7gr of BE out of my gun has proven to be more accurate with just enough recoil to work the slide reliably for me so far. 

I find it interesting you separate your brass instead of mixing brands.  Is this to improve accuracy or reliability or just for reloading consistently?  I ask as I don't separate brass by brand. I generally only separate by color.  Either nickel or brass. 

What did surprise me was reading here the Star fixed powder slides markings are more a guide than a indicator.  For example, I have a slide marked 2.8gr BE but the charges average 2.9gr BE.  Same with a 2.6gr BE slide.  It throws 2.7gr BE.  It is close but not the same.  Because of this, I started using an adjustable charge bar for the smaller charges. 


Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: CDRT on August 16, 2008, 10:54:31 am
I started sorting brass back when I was shooting Bullseye matches in the 1970s, so it was easier to know which was mine.  Of course, now, only a few guys shoot .38 Specials in the Centerfire match, so it's not as important.  But, oddly enough, the other day at the Dallas match, I had a guy shooting a Model 52 next to me and another guy with a Clark down a few positions.  Luckily I keep a Sharpie in my gun box for just such an occasion.  The brass catcher doesn't always get them all, but it helps.

I do feel a little more confident in their consistency when I use the same mfg, especially for match loads versus practice.

I know what you mean about the powder slides.  I had one that was supposed to throw 3.0 grains of BE.  When I checked it, it was only throwing 2.7.  I used a fine swiss file to open it up a little, so now it throws right around 2.95; close enough.  I do have a couple of the adjustable slides since I have a separate press for .38s and another for .45 ACPs.

I had to go to a 7 pound recoil spring in the Clark to get it to function with the 2.7 load.  I'm not sure what weight the original spring was, since it had been cut down from a heavier spring.  I had Clark build it in 1982.  I did have a new bushing put in a few years ago when I noticed the groups opening up and I had the slide tightened.  We have a good local gunsmith who works on 1911s.  He built my Hardball gun for me that I used to get my Distinguished Pistol medal.
Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: Star73 on August 16, 2008, 01:22:07 pm
Interesting information from all of you! The reason for my interst in 231 is that Jerry Keefer related it's superiority after much testing. This was for revolver & PPC but I understood it to include the 1911.

I have 2 38 1911's, both recent aqusitions. I have many yrs of bullseye shootingl using a 45. The gun I'm currently shooting is by an unknown 'smith.  It has a slide mount. The other is a Giles that looks to have seen light usage.  A friend with many yrs of BE comp opines the gun was done by Clark. I question that as I've always observed Clarks to be marked. The earlier guns on the inside of the slide.

I find the 38 fun to shoot. 

Ron

Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: Star73 on August 16, 2008, 01:35:15 pm
Regarding the mix/sorting of cases, soon after getting the 38 I had a poor lot of BE so started using Clays in the 45. After completing the workup for the 45 I started w/ the 38. I used all nickel to ease ID of the Clay loads. I settled on 2.6 of Clays & loaded a couple hundred . Checked the cases after the 1st string of 5 & found all bulged.

Apparently the nickel cases are stronger. Nickel & brass cases were mixed.
Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: CDRT on August 16, 2008, 03:11:03 pm
You're right about Clark marking the inside of the slide. Even my newer Clark Heavy Slide has the date stamped on the housing over the firing pin, as does the older one.  Clark also engraved the slides on the outside of every one I've ever seen with his name, type of firearm, e.g. Heavy Slide, and his location.

The only time Clark will not engrave the slide is if they only do part of the conversion.  If they do not do the trigger job, for example, when they build the gun, they will not engrave the slide with their logo.

I've had much better luck with regular brass than the nickel kind with my Clark, BTW.  All the nickel brass I had was sold a long time ago on eBay, when you could do that.
Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: bummer7 on August 17, 2008, 12:30:12 am
Very interesting information indeed!  As to comparing brass vs nickel - I haven't found any advantage of one over the other.  Like you, I separate brass and nickel strictly for reloading purposes.  I will say that I find nickel seems to have more splits than brass cases though. 

Also interesting is your load of 2.6gr of Clays bulged some of the cases.  I thought this was a mild load?  On the plus side, you can always shoot your remaining reloads using a revolver. 

I have to agree with your assessment on the 1911-38.  It is a fun combination although finicky about the ammo at times.  As much as ww231 is easy to meter and shot well, I found the powder left a gritty ash in the gun. 

Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: Star73 on August 17, 2008, 12:59:21 pm
Bummer,
You're right 2.6 clays is a mild load. The 38 conversion is only capable pf a mild load as the case is unsupported which caused me to [edit] the nickel as adding some strength to the case. Possibly an increased tendency to split is from the nickel not having the elasticity that brass does? I did use the 2.6 up in my revolver. Glad I looked at the cases after the 1st 5!

Clays load data site lists 2.6 as the max load for the 38 WC. I called them to verify that & the tech answered he didn't know!!!

At any rate the response here has caused me to put the 231 50 load on hold. Possibly what I read only applied to the revolver?
Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: starman on August 17, 2008, 07:37:48 pm
on the 38 brass if you check the wall thickness of one brand and then check another you will see that it is not the same that is why you do not want to mix brass. I mark my brass with felt tip pin that way I know what is mine. Pat    Kalifornia 
Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: bummer7 on August 17, 2008, 11:28:49 pm
I agree with you the wall thickness is different for each brand.  Generally, I have not had a problem with mixed brass.  The one time I encountered a problem was a batch of brass a friend gave me.  It was all the same make and once-fired as he did not reload.  But what you say about mixing brass does make me stop and think. 

While I mark my brass out of habit, I find few if any other competitors with 38spl on the line.  Of the other calibers, I see more 32 than 38s.  Ocassionaly, Someone will have a S&W Model 52 but I seldom see another 1911-38.

Speaking of unsupported barrels; are you referring the the underside of the barrel in front of the ramp?  Where there is no support for the chambered round?  If yes, have you thought about replacing the barrel with another?  I think Kart makes a fully supported 38spl barrel for the 1911 that fixes this issue. 

Back to using ww231 powder - 231 is a good powder.  Is there any other powders you've tried and found acceptable? 

-s
Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: Star73 on August 17, 2008, 11:51:33 pm
starman,
don't recall the headstamp but have had some that very noticeably bulge the case after seating.  have had the best results with winchester. as a vol ro i get a lot of it from shooters who buy ammo at walmart. for 25 yd time rapid have been much less selective...thanks for the info!
ron
Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: rbwillnj on August 18, 2008, 09:27:47 am
The older Clark barrels, and for that matter the barrels of most of the others who made 38 Special 1911s have the ramp integral to the chamber leaving a portion of the case unsupported.   No problem till you get a double charge then it blows out the bottome of the case, blows out the magazine and the grip panels.   I have seen it happen.   Fortunately the owner wasn't hurt, just got a scare and some blackened hands.   Newer Clark barrels have a Nowlin/Clark ramp with a corresponding cut in the frame.

I have a 70's era Clark 38 Special Heavy Slide 1911 that had the older style barrel.  A couple years ago I had a squib during last shot of the first string of rapid fire.  The gun functioned normally except it stove piped that case.  I didn't think anything of it and continued with the second string.   I actually ended up with 10 on the paper, but two shots were not where I called them.  I also ended up with a nice ring in my barrel and the accuracy went to He%#.    I sent it back to Clark and they installed a new ramped barrel and charged $450.  When they sent it back they had installed a 5# recoil spring.   I reinstalled an 8# spring and that seems to work better for me.

I use 2.7 grains of 700X under a Remmington HBWC.  I have also used 3.1 grains of 231 and 2.7 grains of Bullseye, all of which give about the same results.   I have a frame mounted red dot.  I'm a big believer in finding the load that gives the best accuracy in your gun, then tune the gun to work with that load by changing recoil springs.   Having said that, I think it's a lot harder to do that with a slide mounted dot on a 38 Special than it is with a 45.   The previous owner of my Clark had a slide mounted dot, and he never did get it to function with 100% reliability.   He had Clark install their frame bridge.

 
Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: starman on August 18, 2008, 05:59:36 pm
I got a Clark  Long slide but with the mini rib it was built in the 60 it has a little ramp on the fram for a guide works great. I got a S&W 6inch 38 sp. barrel for the 1911 in one gun and the barrel is not suported the brass will not last as long I see a little bulge as the brass gets a few reloads so I do keep that brass buy it self. Kart makes a 38 sp barrel but if I remember it is .3555 not .357 no problem as long as you know. Years ago a friend who I shoot with had a 32 WC barrel for the 1911 it was 6 inch he got it from Don Nygard. fred Kart was going to come out with a kit in 32 WC but never did. I wanted one,  he said had problems mag or some thing. Hay this was fun talking about the good old days. Pat   Kalifornia
Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: Star73 on August 19, 2008, 02:22:43 pm
You're right about the limitations in load selection w/ the slide mt'd dot. That's what stopped my load development with clays. Apparently the pressure curve won't allow the use of enough pdr for positive functioning. I have much more confidence in the slide mounts though. The BE load of 2.75 works it fine. I'm really surprised Clark uses a 5# spring. I had the almost identical experience w/ a squib load ringing the barrel. My 'smith checked accuracy & says it's OK. I have shot 187' SF & 199's RF since. Wish it wasn't occasional & was in a match!!

Are the Nowlin/Clark's the only supported 38 barrel?

Have any of you seen the "gas guns" offered out of New Philadelphia Ohio? They did have a 1911 .32 gas operated. Not sure if the .32 is still offered.

Ron
Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: Star73 on August 19, 2008, 02:29:08 pm
Starman,
I started shooting in ' 68 w/ at the same time as another new club member. 2-3 yrs later he bought a pair of Clark long slide, min-ribbed 1911's in .38 & 45. They were in a small 3 gun box w/ fancy cover. Buckheimer? He's gone now & was bit tight lipped about his deals. I've often wondered what happened to those guns. I shot the 38 & I'd only shot std wt 45's to that point. What a different feel!

About the same time a shooter came to our winter league w/ a 38 special 1911 which he said was a Clark He offered it for sale for $165 &
Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: rbwillnj on August 19, 2008, 04:01:12 pm
As far as I know, Clark is the only one still making a 38 Special 1911, and their price has gone up to $2695.  That kinda tells me that they don't want any orders.

Storm Lake made the barrel that Clark put in my gun.   I don't know if you can buy one directly from Storm Lake or if its just custom manufactured for Clark.  Also, I don't know if Kart still makes them, they are not listed in Brownells or Midway.

The Storm Lake barrel has a tighter chamber than my original barrel, and seems to be tapered.  I had to change to a taper crimp to get the cartridge to drop all the way into the chamber.  I think the main reason for this is that I use the Remington HBWC with are really oversized.   You have to really expand the case to get them started, and the roll crimp just didn't take out of of the bell.......but I never had a problem with my old barrel.

I have slide mounts on my 45s, but I think the frame mount is the way to go with 38 Special.
Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: starman on August 19, 2008, 07:05:10 pm
the old 38 sp Clark barrels were 2 peace I have one and if you look real close you can see 38 super colt on the hood, have you seen that one?
Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: Star73 on August 19, 2008, 08:24:53 pm
Starman,
"the old 38 sp Clark barrels were 2 peace I have one and if you look real close you can see 38 super colt on the hood, have you seen that one?"

My understanding is the pistolsmiths who did the 38 conversions simply rechambered the 38 super colts & accurizing the gun. Not so long ago I purchased a Giles 38 conv. It was in nearly new condition, had Giles sights & slide & brl marked 38 super. It had a new colt ss 38 super mag, the store owner acquired it sans mag & had no idea what it was.

I'm not sure who all did these conversions. The store had a HS with the only ID being an S on the bushing. Possibly Shockey. Shockey did them as they were iffered in Gil Hebard's catalogue circa 190's. Many of them were "Colt Kit Guns" which apparently Colt sold to the AMU & various pistolsmiths. They were unassembled guns oversized in critical areas so a target gun could be built more readily. They were in 46 & 38 super.

Recently I purchased a rusty 1911 magazine which was modified by John Giles to feed the 38 special. I cleaned it up and with some tweaking found it did the job. He had reshaped the follower & made 2 sawcuts on the right & 1 on the left to form "lips". The sides of the mags were reshaped using a grinder. I bought it out of curiosity & feel I can modify mags now if needed.

This info is what I have gleaned over the yrs & I make no claim to having "superior or special knowledge". I have heard various versions re the above but this seems the most likely.

I shot BE for many yrs using only the .22 & .45, however I had a fascination with the 38 1911. I was advised the 38 had no advantage & I would be best served to concentrate on mastering the .45. Now,  my scores have fallen to the point a diversion has little effect.

All this is interesting....as they say "those were the days".

Ron
Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: Star73 on August 19, 2008, 08:33:56 pm
As far as I know, Clark is the only one still making a 38 Special 1911, and their price has gone up to $2695.  That kinda tells me that they don't want any orders

"rbw"
I recently overheard a conversation at the range the gist of which was that a customer called Clark to have a 38 special built & they said they are obsolete you should get a 9mm. Of course this is 2nd hand info, BUT considering their price went to $2695 from $1895 it makes sense & gives weight to your posit.

One of the members here, 2150, recently acquired a Shockey 38 Super accurized for BE. He might like to jump in here with what he has learned about this cal & his comments re the 38's.

fascinating stuff!

Ron
Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: CDRT on August 19, 2008, 11:13:48 pm
Yep, Clark Jr. does not like to make .38 Specials, that's why the price went up.  Clark Sr. built mine back in 1982.  Mine has a "Colt .38 Special Kit" barrel...that's how it's marked on the top.  Of course, mine has the std 5" barrel and is not a Long Slide.
Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: starman on August 19, 2008, 11:57:58 pm
I have a Clark 38 sp barrel that says if you look close colt 38 super  it could not be a 38 super barrel reworked to 38 sp. it is 6 inch long. and I have never seen a colt 6 inch barrel. So it must be a two piece barrel. this is from the 1960. I got a few Old Clark mag that he converted to 38 sp one is 38 super and two are 10 mm mags. They do work great.
Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: Star73 on August 20, 2008, 09:13:37 pm
Starman,
Can we post pics here? Or maybe you could send pics direct to me? Very interested in how those mags were done.Do you think the 6" is a Douglas sramped Colt 45 auto? I think he used them later in the 60's. How woud a 2 piece be made? Cut the chamber portion from the Colt 5", bore it & silver solder a turned, press fit 6" in it?  A lot of work

Ron
Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: starman on August 20, 2008, 11:22:16 pm
the clark mags looks like some work to do one has two cuts down the side and the other does not but they do works just fine I did take a 38 super mag and copy the Clark the one that does not have the cuts and I got is to work just fine, little bit of work but you can do it. I have 5 Colt 38 sp mag that work just fine if you see how they are made a lot of engineering went into them but that was the good old days. On two peace barrels it looks like a lot of work and Im not sure how they did put them togeath. I also got a HS 6 inch two peace in 45 acp I can see a little where it went together. I was told that Douglas made the Clark barrels. Does Clark still sell the 38 sp barrels? I do not see just the barrels.          Pat       Kalifornia
Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: bummer7 on August 20, 2008, 11:29:20 pm
Thanks for the great info!  I have one of the Colt 38spl kit barrels that were sold in the 60s.  The bottom is unsupported and yes, I have experienced one ruptured case in the 28+ years I have owned this gun.  It does have it's own brass supply that is kept separate from my revolver ammo.  One ruptured case was enough to convince me to limit how many times I reload it. 

If you like to see a couple of different style magazines, I posted pics at targettalk a few months back.   
http://targettalk.org/viewtopic.php?t=18641 
There are 3 different styles of 38spl mags. 

My next question is "does anyone have a Kart 38spl barrel installed?"  I like to learn more about the ramped design and what is required to retrofit my gun.   Plus, you mentioned the bore is .355   Isn't this a bit smaller than a standard .38/.357 bore?  Last, does anyone else other than Clark sell magazines for this gun?

-s
Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: CDRT on August 21, 2008, 08:27:00 am
Quote
Last, does anyone else other than Clark sell magazines for this gun?

Triple K makes magazines that are copies of the Colt mag.  I have two of them and they work just fine.  They run about $50 from Champions Choice.
High Standard obtained the original machining from Colt for their mags.  I have seen them at Camp Perry and they are very very nice.  I think HS sells them for around $69.  www.highstandard.com

I did have a problem with one of the Triple K mags when I got it, but Triple K stands behind their product and they replaced the defective mag with no problems.  It was actually slightly oversize and would not fit in the gun to where rounds would feed properly.  I sent it to San Diego and had the new one in about 4 days.
Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: Star73 on August 21, 2008, 09:12:18 am
Champions Choice lists Triple K 38 Spl mags for $41, hardly unreasonable, especially compared to some of the quotes I've heard for used Colts.

The Giles modified mag I bought sounds similar to the Clarks, cuts in the sides. I ground a Colt SS 38 Super to duplicate what Giles did & it works.
Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: bummer7 on August 21, 2008, 10:10:54 am
Appreciate the tip.  I have not seen Triple K's 38spl mag in Champion's Choice catalog but will look for them.  $41 is a good price.  Two magazines I have now are marked Colt but look identical to the Triple K.  They're probably are Triple K with Colt's name stamped on it. 

Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: starman on August 21, 2008, 11:59:46 am
Bummer
A lot of good imfo there I love it.Good pictures of mag. and I see you got both colt 38 sp mags.  the one with the cut in the fingers at top  I used for a 32, had to bend them in a little. I think the kart barrel is a 38 super chamber for 38 sp a little time back there was a new one on the board and it was ramp, and it was .355 which is 38 super that is why I think it is 38 super I  did not go after it. There is a company out her that makes the 38 sp mag but it does not work worth a  dam. You know we dont have the gun smith like we use to have to do the work to make a good 38 sp. I think they want to sell you a 9mm or 38 super and they say that is what you want. There is nothing like a 38 sp auto
Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: bummer7 on August 21, 2008, 03:09:11 pm
Starman,

I have 3 different styles of mags.  The topmost picture is an unknown make.  It worked much better before my  ruptured case incident.  I like it because of the aluminum follower.  The typical modified 38 super mags are okay but need new followers now.  They feed well and work great but don't hold the slide open.  The followers are worn out.  The Colt magazines are Triple K brand. 

There is nothing like a 1911-38spl.  It's definitely a fun gun.  There is a gentleman who subscribes to the BE list that has a 1911-32sw Long he made.  His test target was very impressive and this looks to be another good caliber to get chambered in the 1911. 

FYI - Ed Masaki did tune my gun a few years ago.  I don't know if he does conversions or will build one on demand but you may want to ask him.  I will have to contact Kart and find out more about their barrel. 

-s
Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: Star73 on August 21, 2008, 04:41:08 pm
If you like to see a couple of different style magazines, I posted pics at targettalk a few months back.   
http://targettalk.org/viewtopic.php?t=18641 
There are 3 different styles of 38spl mags

My 38  super mag is close to the one posted above. I didn't cut it & the "notch" I ground is deeper than that shown. I find both 1911 38's to be very accurate. Functioning hasn't been a problem. They are pleasant & enjoyable to shoot.

This thread has produced, for me, much information of interest. The exchange has been free of the smart alec stuff that I continually encountered when using Bullseye-L.

Thank you gents !!

Ron H
Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: bummer7 on August 22, 2008, 10:41:22 am
Ron,

Don't give up on the BE list!  Yes, sometimes replies to queries are terse and abrupt.  Sometimes, the members are condescending when they respond.   But there is much good information there and many of the members good honest people.  Sometimes we just have to separate the chaff from the wheat to find what we are looking for. 

Unfortunely, I don't think people realize the limitations of communicating via email.  We miss a large part of the message as we don't see the person we are speaking with face-to-face nor their body language, and hand gestures.  (I learned this from our host here). 

-s
Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: starman on August 22, 2008, 10:58:44 am
bummer
I could not say it any better
      did you check NCG gas gun?  they make some nice guns but never seen one it is in Ohio www.ncggasguns.com
Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: bummer7 on August 22, 2008, 09:13:52 pm
Starman,

No, I have heard about it in the past but thought the company was still testing the gun.  Do you know if the unit is in production?  If so, I wonder how accurate it is? 

-s
Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: Star73 on August 23, 2008, 12:05:36 am
NCS Gas Gun

2 or more yrs ago there was a competitor at our matches with 2 of them, both 45. He had had been shooting one for a time. It was the unit which you attach to your gun (forget their terminology). It was in VERY rough condition, screwdriver scratches etc. The other was a complete 45. He shot 22 only. I only shot 1800 that day & he asked me to shoot the new one for my opinion, but only 1 shot. As I recall it was nice appearing gun & he had very light loads, one of the supposed advantages. He had just got it back as the slide had broken right after he rec'd it. They replaced it-no hassle.

From what I could learn jacketed bullets were needed as the lube fouled the gas port. After he left other shooters said he had lots of trouble with it when he had been at earlier matches.

A talented shooter-pistolsmith from Ohio has begun shooting one in 45. I'll try to find out more about his results and post it.

Ron

PS: That character who signs himself as NSK Co on the BE list is enough to kill a forum himself. I've talked to guys who were squadded next to him & they say he's terrible to be near in a match.
Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: bummer7 on August 23, 2008, 01:06:08 am
Amazing.  So NCS  is producing their conversion kits and also a complete pistol for sale.  The concept looks to be pretty straightforward.  Although the thought of lube clogging the gas port is not particularly appealing. :)  Especially if it jams up during a timed or rapid fire string. 

I did request the company's brochure and product literature as I hope to read more and see what they have to say about it.  Especially in a 32SW Long chambering. 

I understand your concern about NSK as others have shared similar opinions.  While my business with him has always been cordial, I have never competed with him.  If you would like to expand on this topic; I suggest we  take the conversation offline? 

-s
Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: 2150 on August 26, 2008, 06:22:58 pm
Has anyone tried VV N310 in either the .38 Special or NRA target pistols built as .38 Supers? I have a Shockey Super built in NRA Bullseye style with Bo-Mar heavy rib. It came with a H&G #73 bullet mould that drops raw bullets around .3575. The original data from Dick Shockey suggested about 2.8 - 2.9 grains of Bullseye with the 145 grain cast SWC. That load cycled the slide without feeding or extraction problems; it was "soft" on the Slide bump and it locked the Slide back with certainty. Recently, I tried VV N310 as an alternative to the new Bullseye and found that 3.0 - 3.1 grains was accurate and reliable, cleaner burning, and consistant flowing in the Star. I saw Charles Petty article about "The Other .38 Super" in a current publication on 1911 pistols. Mr. Petty writes well and appears to have a strong background in NRA Bullseye shooting. His article shows the various modifications offered thru the years by quality pistolsmiths in their attempts to convert Super magazines to feed flush seated .38 Specials. Mr. Petty mentions Bob Day who was the master pistolsmith at Lackland, AFB -- Day did some innovative work in target pistols and offered a .22 LR conversion about the same time that Freddie Kart introduced his unit to the Marine Corp. It's good to see the interest in, and trade information about, the quality target pistols of the 1960's-70's. I would like to hear from anyone who shoots a .38 Super NRA pistol. Does anyone have good information about the current status of the Bo-Mar firm? Thanks/Brad.     
Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: 2150 on August 26, 2008, 06:34:11 pm
I failed to mention a second great article in the G&A current publication on the 1911 pistols. Gus Norcross of the Maine National Guard Unit wrote a fine article on his experiences at the Nashville armorers' school. He discloses the formula for Red Oil that the AMU mixed for proper lubrication of its target pistols. I believe this is the same stuff that we were given in plastic squeeze bottles at Camp Perry in the early 1980's. Enjoy, it's a good source of real information! Does anyone know how to contact Mr. Norcross?
Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: CDRT on August 26, 2008, 09:03:18 pm
Quote
Does anyone have good information about the current status of the Bo-Mar firm?

Bo-Mar is out of business.  At least that's the last word I got and even Brownells no longer carries their ribs.  Bob passed away unexpectedly last year and IIRC it was an auto accident, but I could be wrong about that.
Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: CDRT on August 28, 2008, 09:45:51 am
For those who commented about Bo-Mar's demise, there is this company who are making a Bo-Mar type sight.  http://www.championgunsights.com/
They have the std rear sights for hardball type guns, but I did not see the full length rib sight like I have on my Clark Heavy Slides.
Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: Star73 on August 28, 2008, 09:56:14 am
30 or so yrs ago almost every well built bullseye gun had a Bo-Mar, either sights or rib. The advent of the red dot had to severely restrict the market. At one point Clark, probably the foremost producer of bullseye guns at the time, switched to Aristocrat ribs. This must have had an adverse effect for Bo-Mar also.
Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: bummer7 on August 28, 2008, 11:48:34 am
When you look down the line at a centerfire match these days, do you see more dots than irons? 

I always thought the growth of the action shooting sports contributed more to the decline of high quality adjustable sights than anything else.  It just seems as people drifted away from conventional pistol shooting, the demand for high quality adjustable sights dropped off.  At the public range these days, I see more Glocks, Sigs, and SA XDs than 1911s. 

On the plus side, Bo-Mar set the standard for others to follow.  They were also difficult to get at times in the past. 
Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: CDRT on August 28, 2008, 01:14:04 pm
Quote
When you look down the line at a centerfire match these days, do you see more dots than irons?

Here in the Dallas area I'd say it's 60/40; red dot to iron.  There are quite a few of us still shooting iron sights.  And it's something I recommend if your main goal is to get Distinguished Pistol.

My Clark Heavy Slide that I had built in 2003 has a Bo-Mar Rib.  The website still lists it being made with a Bo-Mar rib.
Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: NYKenn on August 28, 2008, 01:58:39 pm
As CDRT notes, here in the NorthEast, use of dots versus open are also about 60 / 40.

Mostly, those utilizing red dots seem to be the newer 2700 shooters (fewer and fewer each year)  and older shooters. The new I think because of it being easier to sight with. It limits the need to really master the fundamentals of sight alignment, and concentrate more on trigger control. The older shooters use them mostly due to necessity, to keep shooting as eyesight begins to decline.

I switched to red dots around mid to late 80s. My bullseye scores went up, but did not do well in subsequent distinguished matches trying to achieve the gold. Went back to iron, (.45s with Bomar ribs) practiced more and got distinguised next four matches. I still shoot iron sights and still have Bomars on both my ball guns. (1 Clark, 1 Crawford)

It might also be a bit ironic that Don Hamilton set the National record for highest score at Camp Perry with open sights, and it is still a 30+ year record not yet broken. Also, the majority of those in the 2770 club were shot with open sights, but this is beginning to change.
Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: Star73 on August 28, 2008, 04:25:08 pm
Here in Florida I thing the percentage is much higher. Probably because there are more of us retirees. I put them on (very) early 80's I was shooting master & all of the masters in our area made the switch so I felt I had no choice. I was already distinguished so that was no factor. The top masters then said theIr scores weren't any better but it was easier. Those guys still shot well in the ball matches, one of them winning the top civilian. A many time state champ (Ohio) said the red dot was a great training aid.

I find when I shoot opens I have to practice & concentrate to achieve any scores at all. The speed shooters probably have driven the scope development as they are easier to shoot fast making the point as to hurting the open sight co's.

I heard Jim Sr had a disagreement with Bo-Mar thus the use of Aristocrats for some time period. No idea as to length or when.
Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: bummer7 on August 29, 2008, 04:30:02 pm
I don't remember seeing a 60/40 split or anything close to it on the line here.  I would estimate a fourth of the shooters have red dots.  However, at an indoor league a few years ago, I was the only one shooting iron sights out of 11-12 competitors.   Only time I remembered being outnumbered by dots.  I didn't mind it until they voted to turn off the lights at the firing line
Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: rbwillnj on September 18, 2008, 02:16:55 pm
I finally got around to Ransom Rest testing my Clark 38 Special.   The attached picture is a 10 shot group at 50 yards from a ransom rest.   The load was 2.7 grains of 700X under a Remington 148 Gr HBWC.   I'm pretty happy with the results.
Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: NYKenn on September 18, 2008, 03:21:09 pm
Nice target.
You know when the gun can shoot with the right load, the rest is all up to the shooter.
Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: bummer7 on September 18, 2008, 04:43:46 pm
Nice!  What would you guess is the bullet speed? 


Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: Star73 on September 18, 2008, 04:58:59 pm
rbw,
700X seems to be a well kept secret. Occasionally the pdr is advocated with the user getting excellent accuracy. It will group well [no e-mail]@ 50 yds using a 160 gr H&G 242s.

How is your 38 set up, heavy slide, scope, or just the slide & reg sights?

Very nice group, looks like 8 x's...possibly 9?
Ron
Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: rbwillnj on September 18, 2008, 06:09:41 pm
My Clark was originally a "Heavy Slide" and is so marked.  It had a slide mounted Ultradot.  However, because of reliability problems the previous owner had Clark install one of their bridges for a frame mounted scope, and that's the way it is set up now.   I haven't shot the Clark much lately, but I plan to shoot it at the Police-L match at Harrisburg this weekend, and for the centerfire portion of the New Jersey State Championships next week end.
Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: CDRT on September 18, 2008, 07:39:22 pm
This was with a Clark Heavy Slide (iron sights) at a outdoor Bullseye match in Dallas.  25 yard timed fire.  Load was 3.0 grains of BE.  I've since gone back to the 2.7 load.
Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: rbwillnj on September 18, 2008, 09:40:43 pm
Bummer,   I chronographed the string.  The average speed was 793 fps with a standard deviation of 7 fps.

CDRT,  Looks like you need to adjust your sight down about two clicks......just kidding, nice target.
Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: bummer7 on September 20, 2008, 10:14:57 pm
Guys,

Really impressive grouping, targets, and shooting.  Even better is all the great information on pet loads!  You given me new ideas on loading the 1911/38. 

Thanks for all the good information and encouragement.   

-s

Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: Star73 on September 21, 2008, 11:57:37 pm
I have to take issue with the advice to chg the sights...it should only be moved 1 click.
Ron
Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: CDRT on September 22, 2008, 08:45:37 am
Actually I was holding a little to tight on the bottom of the bull.  On the next target, without changing the sights, I shot a 98 but the hits were lower where they should be.  :)
Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: wm197858 on September 27, 2008, 05:33:12 pm
In the past I have owned several Clarks.  Some were engraved, but the earlier ones were not, although they were full jobs.  I discussed this about one year ago with the Clark Co. Jim's son, I think, and he conformed this,  However, they always marked inside.  One can call Clark, and they will conform.  Warren, TN
Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: Star73 on September 30, 2008, 03:07:54 pm
The 38 colts are  pleasant to shoot. I think they tend to hurt 45 scores though. I didn't own one until I was 65 & then the theory was my scores had deteriorated so badly it couldn't hurt. It did. Possibly practicing w/ the 45 then shooting the 38 in matches? I've had some very nice pratice 38 scores but am inconsistent and have always scored lower than with the 45.

What are some of you posters exp in this regard? Also what bullets have given the best results? I use Delta Precision HBWC (swaged). I noted rbwillng's success w/ Rem.

My 38 (the one I shoot) is a slide mounted red dot and has no markings as to the pistolsmith. I use 2.75 grains of BE. I haven't had the opportunity to have it shot in the ransom rest.
Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: starman on September 30, 2008, 04:45:00 pm
Star  73
I have a Clark 38 sp with a slide mounted red dot and I shoot a H&G #50 THAT IS A 148 GR. WC button nose I size them to .357 dia and the barrel is .3565  I use wheel weight lead with 2.8 bull But I must say I did shoot some hbwc and did shoot good too but I did have leading.the hbwc bullet are .358 dia. I do have a long slide Clark in 38 with a mine rib.   Pat   Kalifornia
Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: bummer7 on October 01, 2008, 12:13:25 am
Star73, 

A surprising observation about your 38 scores being lower than your 45 scores.  I would have thought shooting the 38; your scores would be comparable to your 45 results.  I have found the 38 to be a joy to shoot and much easier in timed and rapid fire.   

However, it's taken me most of the summer to find a reliable and accurate load my gun likes. 

-s



Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: CDRT on October 01, 2008, 07:53:55 am
My .38 scores are consistently higher than my .45 scores.  I can invariably shoot several "cleans" with the .38 on the timed fire portion of the match.  My best with the .45 has been a 98.

The .38 can lead you into a trap however.  You can get spoiled by the lighter trigger pull and sometimes the .38 is like that girl friend you really love at lot, but she doesn't like you very much.  I've had really good days where everything works fine and some days I can't hit my butt with both hands.  The .38 can be very unforgiving if you forget to follow through and concentrate on your sights and trigger control.

My Clark .45 is very consistent and there are periods where I will put the .38 away and just shoot the .45 in 2700s.  I shoot higher slow fire scores with the .45 but part of that is the advantage of the bigger hole down range on the target.  Groups are about the same size but that .38 hole can be a detriment at 50 yards.

On bullets, I've had good luck with Remington's HBWC though they are messy to reload.  I also liked National's swaged HBWC before they went out of business.  And Hornady's HBWC works, as does Zero's.  For DEWCs, I still have some Western Nevada bullets that shoot okay, but I think they went out of business as well.
Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: bummer7 on October 01, 2008, 05:36:52 pm

That's a great analogy of the .38 being like a former girlfriend.  I have to remember that the next time I'm at the long line trying to keep my shots on paper :)   As much as I like shooting my .45 - the gun has been in the shop most of this year so I elected to go to my backup centerfire gun. 

Regarding bullets, I found Hornady's HBWC to be quite accurate with many HBWC also grouping well out of my gun.  Currently, I have a lot of Bear Creek Supply bullets that I am working my way through.  The part that doesn't always work well is the loose nut behind the gun. 

I was told Western Nevada Bullets is now called X-Treme Bullets.  They're alive and well in Carson City, NV.

Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: Star73 on October 02, 2008, 11:50:18 pm
Which gun do you practice most .38 or .45? I have found I must practice w/ the .38 as there is a dif in the two. As mentioned above, follow thru is very critical w/ the .38.

I have an old shooting friend who had an analogy similiar to the "girl friend", his was "the .38 is like a lady of ill repute, you know you shouldn't but you can't resist going there".

Seriously, I too find the .38 very pleasant to shoot.
Ron
Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: CDRT on October 03, 2008, 04:13:09 pm
The last two years, I've spent more time with the .45, but that's because I was on a roll and Legged out for Distinguished Pistol a year ago June.  Since then, I practice with both about equally, but some matches, I will just shoot the .45 since I only have to worry about bringing ammo for it and the .22.

Since the Winter indoor season is coming up, I'll probably spend a little more time with the .38 since I like shooting it in the indoor matches and will shoot it at the Texas Indoor State match in April in the Centerfire and team matches.
Title: Re: 38 Special load for 50 yards with W-231
Post by: bummer7 on October 04, 2008, 01:40:23 pm

For years, the .38 was in my box as a backup gun.  Really never shot the 38 much over the years as I put more effort into learning the .45.  Now that I have used the .38 for most of this year's matches;  I have to say I really appreciate it much more than before.   

Now, I wonder how well a .32 SW long  would work in place of the .38? 

-steve