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Star Reloaders Discussion Forums => Star Reloaders => Topic started by: wallpep on December 27, 2009, 07:04:48 pm

Title: Any interest in new star type reloader?
Post by: wallpep on December 27, 2009, 07:04:48 pm
I've been staring at a star for a while now and was wondering how much interest there would be in a newly manufactured star with upgrades and how much people would be willing to pay for it.  The upgrades I think should be included are:

No shell, no powder.
Reversible for right or left hand.
7/8-14 dies.
Adjustable powder bars.
Make it so you can use whatever powder measure you desire.
Hulme type case feeder standard or being able to use one from someone else.
Change the ergonomics.

Any suggestions or ideas, value?
Title: Re: Any interest in new star type reloader?
Post by: Hardrockshot on December 28, 2009, 12:24:21 am
I would love to buy a new press, for less than $1,000.00 dollars, maybe even as low priced as a Dillion (please forgive me for the blaspheme).  I do not want to see plastic, that is one of the main problems I see with the other progressive loaders.  More rifle cartridges, also.
Title: Re: Any interest in new star type reloader?
Post by: NYKenn on December 28, 2009, 06:27:00 pm
My opinion only.

I think it important that parts interchange with existing stars. That would be a major selling point to me. If not, it would be like the Dillon, simply another reloader option.  Tool heads and parts available in rifle calibers would be well received.\, and as Hardrockshot notes, minimal plastic.

If the above were done, prices would have to be in an area that would be competitive with what else is out there. Certainly it could be more expensive but not overpriced.

What it would be priced at would have to be determined by calculating all the variables that impact the cost of manufacture such as materials, R&D, warranty, and of course a profit?

Good luck. Would love to see this.


 
Title: Re: Any interest in new star type reloader?
Post by: varmintpopper on December 29, 2009, 12:55:52 am
MY 2 cents
I'd like to see someone manufacture the Star Reloader again, and perhaps  include as standard  the improvements that have been thought up over the years by the folks that reloaded with them. price kept within reason and the
quality as good or better. There should be  a good market out there. Put Me in line for one !

Something to think about:  Patent infringement.

Lindy


Title: Re: Any interest in new star type reloader?
Post by: dverna on January 29, 2010, 02:45:21 pm
Not practical.

I have two Stars and two Dillon 1050's.  The Dillon will do everything you need for $1500.  A new copy of a Star will be very expensive.

Hell, new shooters don't even know what a Star is.  It will be a marketing challenge for sure. "Better than a 1050 and only XX% more!"

Used ones are snapped up at $400-800 but who will spend $2000+ for a new one?

Don
Title: Re: Any interest in new star type reloader?
Post by: 333OKH on January 29, 2010, 06:39:01 pm
I have 4 Star Machines and a 550B, i think there would be a market out there, at least their not half plastic and pot metal, George.
Title: Re: Any interest in new star type reloader?
Post by: cc656d on January 29, 2010, 07:40:30 pm
What do you think a New Star is worth?
Title: Re: Any interest in new star type reloader?
Post by: cc656d on January 30, 2010, 07:30:44 am
BUT                 What is a New Star worth today    ( NIB )
Title: Re: Any interest in new star type reloader?
Post by: Kenneth L. Walters on February 07, 2010, 10:01:17 am
I've been staring at a star for a while now and was wondering how much interest there would be in a newly manufactured star with upgrades and how much people would be willing to pay for it.  The upgrades I think should be included are:

No shell, no powder.
Reversible for right or left hand.
7/8-14 dies.
Adjustable powder bars.
Make it so you can use whatever powder measure you desire.
Hulme type case feeder standard or being able to use one from someone else.
Change the ergonomics.

Any suggestions or ideas, value?



Wasn't that the idea behind the CPM?
As much as I like the Star, I believe that its time has past.  The Dillon/RCBS is every bit as serviceable but a lot less expensive to make.  The Star tool head is just too expensive to compete.
Title: Re: Any interest in new star type reloader?
Post by: Star73 on February 07, 2010, 05:52:58 pm
Bill Detoff, the designer & producer of the CPM, was positive he could beat Star's price building & selling his machine. At least that's what he said before he got them into production.

A considerable amount of costwork should be done in advance.

The gentleman's comment re the 1050 should be considered as very good advice. I've been in Bullseye shooting since '68 & he is the 2nd person I have heard having a 1050. The point here being that beating their price will be tough & how large a market is there for that price machine. Especially when Dillon has a rep for replacing those plastic parts etc for little or nothing.

With all that being said I am a dedicated Star owner & user.

My list for this dream machine:
7/8-14 dies
Choice of adjustable pdr bar or drilled for Hornady bushings
Auto Indexing
Hulme
Finished Rd Ejection

Title: Re: Any interest in new star type reloader?
Post by: Joatmon on February 16, 2010, 11:11:07 pm
 It would be interesting to know just how many Dillon 1050's and 650's are sold each year.  That would give you an idea about the possible market size.  I like the idea of a Star "like" machine being manufactured again but don't know if it would be a money making enterprise (even if I would like to buy one).  As already stated above, the marketing would be a challenge (except for members of this forum!).  All of the companies making Star clones are gone as well, so the market could not have been that strong.  Making that "toolroom fit" of all the parts of a Star, as well as the amount of machining of the main head would be quite expensive.  How much would you be willing to pay?  The folks that make Spolar reloaders seem to have found a place in the market. 

I find it a marvel that companies such as Dillon and Hornady can manufacture progressive reloaders for as little money as they do.  That still does not mean that I will buy one.  I enjoy using old reloading equipment such as the Star as much as I enjoy shooting sports.  The quality and precision of the machine is a constant reminder of what can be done with care and pride in your work.  I believe that Swanee acquired all the remaining tooling and parts for the Berdon loader from the estate.  I don't know if he had plans to possibly make the loaders again or if he had other ideas.  Perhaps he will chime in here...
Title: Re: Any interest in new star type reloader?
Post by: NYKenn on February 17, 2010, 09:14:39 am
Being a pistol enthusiast, I have not seriously done shotgun so had never heard of the Spolar.

WOW!. Starlike in quality and design. Costly? Yes, but a price I would pay if I was seriously in the sport like I am in pistol. Have never seen a Spolar in person, only a Dillon. From the web site alone, there is no comparison to the Dillon, which is a good machine.

Not sure I would get the hydraulics, but that was a great idea to incorporate into the production. With some engineering, it could probably be adapted to a Star.

I do see that they say the slow down in the computer and aerospace industries allowed them to advance the manufacturing concept to an affordable level. I would speculate this was a project that was done in down time, because to dedicate time and effort to this alone as a project would definitely be costly.

I would suggest everyone take a look at the videos on the site if they have never seen a Spolar.
WWW.SpolarGold.Com
Title: Re: Any interest in new star type reloader?
Post by: rbwillnj on February 17, 2010, 09:53:01 am
I'd be curious how many reloaders Spolar sells in a year.  At $1550, I'm guessing they don't sell many at all.

I do a lot of Trap Shooting (12,000 - 15,000 shells per year).   I don't know anyone with a Spolar.  I know very few people with Ponsness Warrens (which are also quality machines) and Dillons which both go for around $800.   Mec's are the most popular, with the Mec 9000GN being the most popular among volume shooters.   A Mec 9000GN lists for under $500 now.

In reloading for pistol, most of us reload not only because it saves money, but because we create loads which are better than what we can buy.   With shotgun reloading, you never hear anyone say they can load better rounds than they can buy.  It's all about cost.

Title: Re: Any interest in new star type reloader?
Post by: SWANEE on February 17, 2010, 01:52:30 pm
In responce to Joatman, I did a lot of researching to or not to persue in the manufacture of a Star type reloader, I did have all the drawings-jigs and alot of parts but was just not feasable in my opinion to do a start-up in making of a new press. I sold most everything I had with the exception of a few parts I needed, the gents who bought what I had maybe are in the works of doing such a project but at this time I have not heard from them, I do know they were quite excided at the time but maybe have changed their mind, some day you all may hear from them. BUT, on a side note (when we get some warm weather, if that ever happens) I am working on a Star to load 223, have had some machine work done and a little more to be done (is costly so have to move slow), but I can tell you it will be case activated for the powder drop and be able to use with ALL calibers, don't get to excided, it's still in progress. Regards to all and a big (WOOF WOOF) from my new buddy Gus.
Title: Re: Any interest in new star type reloader?
Post by: dverna on February 18, 2010, 04:13:23 pm
I have a Spolar hydraulic (purchased used for $1800) and I shoot with three other guys who have one.  It is the Star of shotshell reloaders.  I also have a PW 800+ with electric drive and case feeder.  Total of $3600 invested in shot shell reloaders and I turn out 2 flats of shells per hour without any heroics on either machine - with the PW being faster.  The shells are perfect.

At $8 a box for AA and STS's I am saving over $4 a box - the crap they sell at Wally World for $22/4 pack cannot compare to my reloads.  So, after 900 boxes (22,500) rounds the machines are paid for (but still worth at least $2500 if I sold them).  My girlfriend and I shoot 25,000 rounds of 12 ga a year.  Seems like a no brainer to me. 

I have owned MEC's and a Dillon SL900.  It is like comparing an RCBS Green Machine (which I thankfully rid myself of) or a Lee progressive to a Star.  Made for the same purpose but not in the same zip code.

Don Verna

Title: Re: Any interest in new star type reloader?
Post by: 333OKH on February 18, 2010, 05:03:26 pm
Now theres someone who knows what he is talking about.
Title: Re: Any interest in new star type reloader?
Post by: rbwillnj on February 19, 2010, 04:39:23 pm
dverna

It's good to hear Spolar is selling some.  They look like a great machine, but like I said, I don't know anyone who has one or is interested in buying one.   

The guys I shoot with are not financially challenged.   They have no problem spending $15-$25K on shotguns, but they won't spend $1500 on a shotshell reloader.

But anyway, the point of the original discussion was whether there would be a market for a "new" Star at the price it would cost to make one.   I think there wouldn't be much of a market, but as the Spolar illustrates, there would probably be at least some people who would be willing to pay top dollar to own and use the best machine available.

As a side note, last year I spoke with Dan Phelps, the son of John Phelps.   Phelps Engineering went out of business in 64 or 65, and the assets of the business were sold in a bankruptcy sale.   The assets still exist in storage, and Dan who operates a machine shop (like father like son) considered buying the assets and making the reloaders again.   I can't remember if he said it would cost him $2000 to make a reloader now, or if he said he would have to sell it for $2000.    In any case, A newly made Phelps would cost at least $2000.  Dan Phelps abandoned the idea.   

Title: Re: Any interest in new star type reloader?
Post by: Joatmon on February 20, 2010, 09:32:07 pm
That is an interesting piece of information, and I am sorry to hear that about Dan Phelps. It is a little sad that another door might be closed on the possible manufacture of a Star "like" reloader.  I guess if the assets are still in receivership there is the possibility of another person trying to make a go of it. 

Thanks for the information Swanee, I am a bit disappointed that you will not be pursuing the production of the Berdon brand.  However, I am sure that if you come up with some mods for a slick 223 conversion there would be some interested parties here.  Probably me included. 

Does anyone happen to know the name of the company that built that large version of the Star?  I remember seeing a photo of a tool designed to reload .50 BMG maybe 15 years ago (Star on steroids).  I would like to know what happened to them and if the tool could be set up to load other more common rifle cartridges. 

John

Title: Re: Any interest in new star type reloader?
Post by: dverna on February 25, 2010, 11:35:18 am
rbwillnj

Interesting information.  It confirms that nothing like a Star will ever be built again.  It is sad.

There is a sizable market for progressive machines to load pistol calibers but we have many players already.

Those who want a Star can buy decent used machines for $400-800 and keep them running even if parts have to be made.  It becomes hard to justify $2000+ for a new one unless the supply of old ones dries up.  We are seeing a lot of Stars on Ebay because guys are getting out of shooting or as estate sales. 


Don Verna 
Title: Re: Any interest in new star type reloader?
Post by: rbwillnj on February 26, 2010, 08:46:49 pm
Joatmon,

This evening I had a conversation with Dave Davidson of CH Tool and Die.  I'm not sure how we got around to the discussion topic, but he began to talk about a guy who had designed a large version of the Star to load 50 BMG.  According to Dave, John Powers who owned a machine shop or metal working business in the Detroit area designed and built one for himself, and later for $5000, built one for a guy by the name of Kent LaMott.  As far as Dave knew, those were the only two ever built.  Apparently this all happened in the mid 80's.

Bruce
Title: Re: Any interest in new star type reloader?
Post by: NYKenn on February 26, 2010, 11:00:51 pm
For someone that shoots a lot, 1000 yes, 1,500 maybe, 2,000 not sure.
I cannot imagine 5K for a reloader. That would price out the market.
Title: Re: Any interest in new star type reloader?
Post by: rbwillnj on February 27, 2010, 12:08:03 am
I think we are talking about a one of a kind machine, or at least one of two.  As I understand the story, John Powers had no intention of marketing the machine, he just built it for himself.  Kent LaMott wanted one and convinced Powers to make one for him at a rather extravagant price.   Dave Davidson, currently of CH Tool and Die, who told me the story was sitting at the dinner table with Powers and LaMott when the deal was made.

Now I don't know if this is the same machine that Joatmon was asking about, but the story seems to fit.
Title: Re: Any interest in new star type reloader?
Post by: Joatmon on February 28, 2010, 09:26:10 pm
Bruce,

Thanks a lot for sharing that piece of information.  I have been wondering about that for years, I didn't think my memory was that far gone.  The time frame sounds about right, somehow a photo of one of those machines must have gotten into a copy of reloaders digest or some such book (I cant seem to locate it now).  It answers the question that the larger machine was never commercially produced. 

Five thousand is way out of the range of what almost anyone would pay anyway.  As Don points out, used machines are still available and can be fixed up for much less that that.   My earlier point was just that some folks are willing to pay more than average for the best/fastest/highest quality tool.  The size of that niche market is what you would  have to price and market the machine for.  All of the updates that have been suggested above would be important also (standard die size, powder lockout and drain, auto indexing, etc).   

Just out of curiosity, is the tool head for the Star cast steel or cast iron?  I don't really want to do the grinder and spark test experiment to find out, but would like to know.  The idea of a milled aluminum head with a larger bearing area (larger bore column or sleeved bronze bushing) would decrease the manufacturing costs (just dreaming here).

John
Title: Re: Any interest in new star type reloader?
Post by: Kenneth L. Walters on March 05, 2010, 11:20:25 am
Joatmon,

This evening I had a conversation with Dave Davidson of CH Tool and Die.  I'm not sure how we got around to the discussion topic, but he began to talk about a guy who had designed a large version of the Star to load 50 BMG.  According to Dave, John Powers who owned a machine shop or metal working business in the Detroit area designed and built one for himself, and later for $5000, built one for a guy by the name of Kent LaMott.  As far as Dave knew, those were the only two ever built.  Apparently this all happened in the mid 80's.

Bruce


I'm pretty sure that there were four.  Had a set of pictures of one of them years ago.
Title: Re: Any interest in new star type reloader?
Post by: Kenneth L. Walters on March 16, 2010, 11:09:30 am
The Star copies, as best as I can remember, were the Phelps, Berdon, CPM, Dillon RL1000, the 50 BMG and a unit produced in Australia by Simplex I think.
Title: Re: Any interest in new star type reloader?
Post by: rbwillnj on March 16, 2010, 03:22:35 pm
That's interesting, I have never heard of Simplex.
Title: Re: Any interest in new star type reloader?
Post by: starman on March 16, 2010, 11:34:17 pm
I thought the one built in Australia was a Willis mybe im wrong boy that would be a first in a long time
Title: Re: Any interest in new star type reloader?
Post by: Kenneth L. Walters on March 16, 2010, 11:44:58 pm
It has been way to long for me to be sure but I think that the Willis was an entirely different machine made here in the US.  If it is the unit I'm think of it was announced, there was a picture somewhere but I could never track down a machine.

The Australian Shooter's Journal could probably tell you the name of the Australian Star copy.
Title: Re: Any interest in new star type reloader?
Post by: rbwillnj on March 17, 2010, 01:25:26 am
I did some Goggle searches, and Simplex is certainly an Australian maker of reloading equipment.  I have not been able to find any references to a Star type machine yet, but they did at least make copies of Lyman turret presses.  If Simplex made a Star copy, I would sure like to see some pictures.
Title: Re: Any interest in new star type reloader?
Post by: Joatmon on March 19, 2010, 07:24:16 pm
After a little digging I found a book chapter in the ABC's of reloading 6th ed. (1997) that was written by Ken Walters (that's you isn't it Ken?).  The chapter is titled "State of the progressives" and included is a photo of a Star clone set up in 50 caliber Browning.  There is no more information in the text and a manufacturer is not listed.  I think this is the photo that I recalled seeing.  This certainly looks like a commercial production machine, but that is all I could come up with. 

John
Title: Re: Any interest in new star type reloader?
Post by: NYKenn on March 19, 2010, 08:02:14 pm
John

Any chance you can post the picture for the rest of us?

Kenn
Title: Re: Any interest in new star type reloader?
Post by: Joatmon on March 20, 2010, 07:09:26 pm
Sorry NYKenn, I have no digital camera and am a bit challenged in that department.  Perhaps Ken W. can help out here, if he happens to have a copy of the photo or article. 

John
Title: Re: Any interest in new star type reloader?
Post by: Star73 on March 20, 2010, 07:40:37 pm
Ken W. I think, wrote "wasn't that the idea behind the CPM"? That pretty well sums it up. I heard Bill Detloff (CPM owner) say on sev occasions a loader could be built better & cheaper than Stars. He built a good machine w/some of the improvements listed. Price was virtually the same as Star. I have never been able to find out any approximation of the no's he sold. Possibly a CPM employee or accountant could shed light.

3 loader businesses , Star, Phelps, & CPM, folded after the primary person involved became inactive. Viability of this business must ave been in question then (20+ yrs ago?) or one of the 3 would have at least given production a serious attempt.

When I started pistol competition there was one game, Bullseye, and 1 progressive loader, Star. Today there are several games and sev progressives. I did not have the $$ for a Star, 2 of us split one. Today we w/ have ea prob bought a cheaper loader.

This is what the prospective businessman is up against.

Ron
Title: Re: Any interest in new star type reloader?
Post by: Kenneth L. Walters on March 21, 2010, 05:01:04 pm
CPM did one other remarkable thing for which they never got credit.  They were the ones who design the conversion kit between a single stage reloader and a progressive.  Dillon forced them to drop that.  RCBS now calls it a Piggyback.

CPM's problems were that they built complete machines but buying parts was almost impossible.  Also a CPM worked ALMOST like a star but not quite.  Took me years to realize the subtle difference.  Til then running one was a nightmare.  Afterward it wasn't.

Phelps lingered long after it should have.  I don't remember the name of the last owner but he was a fireman, as I recall, who was occasionally building them in his basement.  Dan Fausto, maybe.

Though I knew him and met him I can not now remember the guy who designed the Star.  As long as he assembled them personally, which he did virtually all his life, the machines were fine.  When he died the quality of assembly suffered.
Title: Re: Any interest in new star type reloader?
Post by: NYKenn on March 23, 2010, 06:56:02 pm
Ken

Elord Mott?
Title: Re: Any interest in new star type reloader?
Post by: rbwillnj on March 16, 2011, 10:08:01 pm
This is an old thread, but there was an interesting thread on the Cast Boolets forum with some information and a picture of the mythologic 50 BMG Star.  As stated earlier, the author confirmed that it was built by John Powers and thought that only three were built.  He is the owner of one.  He also has a Star Rifle Machine.   How lucky can you get!!!!   I have suggested that he join the forum.   

The picture which was "lifted" from the Cast Boolets forum shows a standard Star Universal, a Star Rifle machine, and the 50 BMG Machine
Title: Re: Any interest in new star type reloader?
Post by: dbltapster on March 17, 2011, 01:24:51 pm
This is an old thread, but there was an interesting thread on the Cast Boolets forum with some information and a picture of the mythologic 50 BMG Star.  As stated earlier, the author confirmed that it was built by John Powers and thought that only three were built.  He is the owner of one.  He also has a Star Rifle Machine.   How lucky can you get!!!!   I have suggested that he join the forum.   

The picture which was "lifted" from the Cast Boolets forum shows a standard Star Universal, a Star Rifle machine, and the 50 BMG Machine
I too was trying to get this Cast Boolits member to join here.  For posterity, and with his permission, I am posting his account / history of that Star-like 50 BMG reloader:

"...Jon Powers is one of the best machinists I have ever met. He is or was at Willis Tool in Michigan. He developed a .44 Magnum and .45 Colt gas-operated semiauto pistol that looked like an enlarged Colt Woodsman and was a thing of beauty. He made several (how many, I don't know, I think it was maybe a dozen) and sold the patent to IMI which came out with the clunky Desert Eagle (with a TERRIBLY wrong grip angle). John tested one of his Magmatics to destruction and could not blow it up with smokeless powder. He finally did it in with a 240 grain bullet loaded into a case charged with 20 or so grains of ditching dynamite.

In the late '70s and early '80s, after seeing the custom .50 BMG rifles I built for myself and Kent Lomont, he got the .50 bug and scratch built his own falling block .50 BMG rifle. Upon seeing Kent's and my Star Progressive reloaders and our Dillon RL1000 (which didn't work as well as it should have due to less-than-Star machining tolerances), he designed and built a .50 BMG progressive press for himself. Kent and I fell in love with it and persuaded him to build one for each of us. I don't know if he ever made more of them--to my knowledge there were only the three made. I heard John's was stolen(!) and Kent's went through a shop fire about 25 years ago, but Jon rebuilt it. Mine is still as good as the day I received it.

The size of the case makes sizing brass fired in an M2 a bit difficult, so I first size the brass (and then trim it) on a single stage press if I'm using cases from a machine gun. But for cases fired in my bolt guns, it runs like a greased clock doing all steps at once.

I lost touch with Jon about 10 years ago, around the time I had my stroke and got divorced. Hope he's doing well..."
Title: Re: Any interest in new star type reloader?
Post by: Joatmon on March 17, 2011, 10:04:43 pm
Thanks for finding and posting the picture Bruce.  It is great to see one of these next to the standard Star and the Rifle version of the Star.  This certainly looks like the picture that I saw in the ABC's of reloading chapter that is referred to earlier in the thread, but the picture is a bit dark to tell for sure.  I have always wanted to see one of these in person, but given that there may only be a couple that exist that may be a bit difficult.  I dont own anything that will shoot .50 Browning, and dont even know where I would shoot it, but I would be tempted to look into it if one of these ended up on my bench.  I have an old Hollywood turret press (massive) which is probably about as close as I will get.

On a slightly different note, I am finishing up the work on the .223 rifle machine that I found before Christmas.  When it is done I will post a couple more pictures of the final product.  Thanks for your suggestions about rust removal. One of those original Star decals would be nice as a finishing touch.

John
Title: Re: Any interest in new star type reloader?
Post by: SWANEE on March 17, 2011, 10:12:32 pm
Hey John, I'm in the works of having some star decals made up, at least i'm trying.
Title: Re: Any interest in new star type reloader?
Post by: Joatmon on March 19, 2011, 07:16:34 pm
Dave, That would be great if you are able to have some made up.  I know there have been a few threads lately about reproducing the decal or potential sources.  I have not been too serious yet about finding them, but I have 2 or 3 Stars where the decal has been accidentally scraped off or loosened with oil and dirt over the years.  I know it does not have anything to do with function, but it would look nice to get them back looking as well as they run.  Let me know if you get some, I am sure others would be interested as well.

John