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Star Reloaders Discussion Forums => Star Reloaders => Topic started by: Hugh Tyer on November 20, 2008, 07:22:35 am

Title: moon unit indexer
Post by: Hugh Tyer on November 20, 2008, 07:22:35 am
Do any of you have a moon unit indexer? If you have would you please comment on the experience you have with this accsessory. It appears to be a neat device.
Hugh
Title: Re: moon unit indexer
Post by: pvg3 on November 20, 2008, 10:42:34 pm
I recently purchased one of these units. It is well designed, and beautifully produced including a most professional set of instructions. Questions were answered promptly. I intend to add these units to my other machines.
Title: Re: moon unit indexer
Post by: Hugh Tyer on November 21, 2008, 05:57:03 am
Thanks for the comment Paul. I'm going to order one for my machine.
Hugh
Title: Re: moon unit indexer
Post by: 45 ACP on December 18, 2008, 04:54:48 pm
Hugh...I've have both the indexer and kicker installed on one of my machines now. My description would be, "they work like a Swiss watch"...no complaints...worth the money...Pete
Title: Re: moon unit indexer
Post by: Hugh Tyer on December 19, 2008, 02:56:08 pm
Gerald
Go to www.bullybarrel.ray-vin.com and you will get all the info on his indexer
Hugh
Title: Re: moon unit indexer
Post by: Ross Chesley on December 19, 2008, 06:44:42 pm
I ordered and installed the Moon Unit Indexer and case kicker. Both are fantastic.

It is best to mount the indexer unit securely -- for me, wood screws did not work as well so I took the advice to use a piece of wood under the press and secured with 1/4"-20 screws and nuts to get it wrench tight. This enabled me to get things very nicely mounted and the adjustments stay perfectly. It works flawlessly and takes up no additional room on the bench -- and it is really not in the way of the press operation either.

The case kicker is incredibly handy -- you have to see if you have 1/8" clearance between your shell plate and the taper crimp die so there is room for the kicker lever to operate. My collection of taper crimps were not an issue and most could be shortened to accomodate the kicker -- and I would not hesitate to shorten the taper crimp, the kicker is most valued.

With the two items installed, it is possible do devote much more focus on placement of each bullet and visually checking for powder -- because the press cycle is still very smooth. The biggest challenge is keeping the press filled with primers, cases, and finding a handy solution to catch all those kicked cases.

Ray is very helpful and responsive and his wife was a peach each time I called. The units are packed and shipped beautifully, and the instructions provided will enable most people to install and adjust to get things working perfectly in under 15 minutes.


Consider this an endorsement! There will be a full review on StarReloaders.com including pictures and additional notes on the installation and adjustments from the recent testing.


Ross
Title: help
Post by: windyhill on May 10, 2009, 10:07:21 pm
who do i contact for the moon indexer? also could any one help me find a automated lead wire cutter,, i make swaged 45 cal bullets, i have a automated swaging press that will turn out 1500 bullets an hour and i need the core cutter to keep up any would be appreciated,, thanks denny
Title: Re: moon unit indexer
Post by: NYKenn on May 11, 2009, 09:00:09 am
Indexor    www.bullybarrel.ray-vin.com
Title: Re: moon unit indexer
Post by: Joatmon on May 11, 2009, 10:14:06 pm
I have heard where the use of the old style indexers (Brewster) on a star can cause accelerated wear on the shell plate.  Anybody out there have any experience with this, or is this just one of those "legends".  I was also curious if this new indexer had the same issues.  Right now both of my machines are manually indexed so I have no experience with this.  Do these things really speed the process up, or is it a marginal increase?  Inquiring minds....
Have to admit those moon indexers look good.
John
Title: Re: moon unit indexer
Post by: Hugh Tyer on May 12, 2009, 06:25:18 am
John
I have only had mine a few months but as there is no contact between the indexer and the shell plate I cant see where the action of indexing will put anymore pressure or wear on the plate than manually indexing. The device will definitely increase the production rate by, in my opinion, at least double.
Hugh
Title: Re: moon unit indexer
Post by: NYKenn on May 12, 2009, 11:00:21 am
Hugh;

What is your rate?
Any special techniques. I have one, never used it. I do not doubt it would speed up, but how much?
Adding in case feeders, and primer turrets, large capacity powder hopper, what do you think is a really achievable number?

Taking my time, sipping coffee, iced tea, etc. I load 300 per hour, including refill of powder, primers, etc.
Having all prepared and ready to go, loading continuously, I can do 500. 
Title: Re: moon unit indexer
Post by: Star73 on May 12, 2009, 07:29:33 pm
I have 2 stars, both w/ feeders, & brewster indexers. They are both set up for auto ejection of the completed rnd. I use "freeloaders" on both. I operate them at a rate of 300/hr. I have produced slightly more than 500 in an hour to see what could bedone. I have no plans for a repeat performance.

I usually get cases, bullets, load my primer tubes, & at the end box & mark the ammo, shelve the boxes & remove pdr from the machine & clean the area. This usually takes about 2 hours.

The various production rates I have heard such as 650 to 800 for the machine as delivered to the customer to 1300 to 1500 for a machine equipped as mine are, for me, way out of reach. That being said I have NO desire or intention to crank ANY loader 1300 times per hour!

Ron
Title: Re: moon unit indexer
Post by: Joatmon on May 12, 2009, 10:17:19 pm
Thanks for your feedback Hugh.  I did not really understand how there could be more wear since the indexer is pushing on the case like your thumb would if you were working manually.  However, I did check out an old Phelps that had a indexer.  The indexer had no name, unfinished aluminum arms and body (anybody got a name for this one?) The shell plate was really sloppy at the index points (lots of play) and it appeared the ball detents were worn on the underside.  Just wondered if anyone out there had a similar experience.  Maybe that machine was just used and abused.

I am no speed hound (if you saw the average age of the equipment in my reloading room you would understand) but it is good to hear what people are actually getting for production rates that have some of these nice accessories.  The Moon unit really does look like a slick design, that combined with the case kicker should speed the process.  Appreciate your input folks. 
John
Title: Re: moon unit indexer
Post by: varmintpopper on May 12, 2009, 11:10:22 pm
Well,, I had gotten by for nearly fifty years useing my left pointer finger as my indexer,, Then I read all this chatter
from all of You on this site about how well this Moon unit worked.    Ordered one from Ray today !!    If it works well,, then I'll mabe order another one.  we'll see.

Lindy
Title: Re: moon unit indexer
Post by: rbwillnj on May 13, 2009, 08:35:53 am
I regularly do 400 rounds/hour without an indexer.   I have never put an indexer on one of my machines because I never saw the need to go any faster.  Also, I like to be able to feel whats going on when I reload, and I was concerned that the indexer would detract from the "feel".

Below is a picture of a Star Universal base that was used with an indexer.   Now I'm guessing this unit was used by a commercial reloader and for all I know may have loaded millions of rounds.  So for the average reloader, damage like this is probably something you don't have to worry about.......unless you are in the market for a new reloader, in which case, you should take a look under the shell plate before you buy.   
Title: Re: moon unit indexer
Post by: NYKenn on May 13, 2009, 01:47:31 pm
Bruce;;

Educate me.
I understand the "feel" you mention. I too notice a probelm (such as a high primer, or powder buildup) by hand turning, that you would not see with an indexer.
But; would you not notice (or hear) a plate alignment, binding, or scraping problem? I would think they would cause problems in operation with an indexer even if not felt would be seen or heard.
If it were the brass case, damage if any at all should be minimal as brass is a much softer material?




Title: Re: moon unit indexer
Post by: Star73 on May 13, 2009, 09:07:09 pm
Kenn,
I only recently started using my indexers. As far as feel, most of what has been mentioned I can tell from the "feel" &  sound of the equipment. Every one will develop their preferences in using these reloaders. There is probably not a right or wrong way w/ most of the add ons. The users preference sand then method & equipment which tells  him what id happening is the "correct" method.

The rate of around 400 w/o the indexer compared to my rate of 300 + is an illustration. Recently I have observed a noticeable reductionin my prod capability. I am fortunate to still be using them & what they produce!! I find it interesting & instructive to hear the experiences & techniques of others.

Ron

Title: Re: moon unit indexer
Post by: rbwillnj on May 14, 2009, 07:14:14 am
Kenn & Ron,

I think when ever you change something in your set up, you have to relearn the feel of he equipment and adjust your techniques.  Point in case;

I recently switched from a Star Safety Cam/Case Ejector to Ray's case ejector on my 45 ACP machine.   With the Star unit I used to have to tap the case in the taper crimp station to make sure it was fully seated in the shell plate before pulling the handle.  It was a motion that became second nature.  With Ray's unit, I don't have to do that motion, the case is always fully seated in the shell plate. 

However, the Star ejector is actuated by a case coming out of the Hulme case feeder.  If the case doesn't come out, no case is ejected from the taper crimp station.  I had gotten to where I would listen for the finished round ejecting, and if I didn't hear it, I would check to see if the case feeder had jammed.  With Ray's unit, I often find that there is no case in the sizing station after I pull the handle.  I no longer have to tap the round in the taper crimp station, but I have to check that I have a case in the sizing station before I pull the handle.
Title: Re: moon unit indexer
Post by: Star73 on May 14, 2009, 04:29:11 pm
Bruce & Ken,

 It's interesting to hear the nuances involved in the use of these machines by various operators.  I'm confined to a wheelchair and have seriously deteriorating shoulders form their (over)use over the yrs. Star being a benchtop machine is much more convenient. The indexers allow for one handed operation while the off hand is used to steady myself. Just makes life easier. I'm not sure my production is much faster than without. Surprisingly the biggest gain was from the setup to auto-eject.

I too have observed that changes to the machine setup are noticeable to the operator and are well worth giving attention to!

My universal has seen use since 1973 & I notice more jams, rounds loaded w/o primers, etc, than some yrs ago. I don't know if it's me, if I tend to miss some of the little things, or I just don't remember! maybe the latter as my scores haven't kept pace w/ my age!

Ron

Title: Re: moon unit indexer
Post by: NYKenn on May 14, 2009, 07:32:57 pm
I understand that, It makes sense that not everything is for speed, etc., but for ease of use. This actually makes more sense than simply doing so to load XX more per hour.

I have not noticed any decline in the quality of my reloads. (missed primers, etc.) Machine is circa 1965, but has been maintained. Cleaned when needed, never forced, not abused. I think that makes a difference in their longevity. Only time I experienced some problems, that I can recall is when I changed something. Differant primers, brass, etc., and all were short term.

Certainly, the main componet is knowing the feel of your particular machine. That alone will lesson the problems.
I wonder how many people learned the hard way. Starting to reload, doing a few hundred in a few hours, only to find a problem after the fact, instead of before.

Kenn
Title: Re: moon unit indexer
Post by: NYKenn on May 14, 2009, 07:36:20 pm
PS.
How did the counter workout?
Title: Re: moon unit indexer
Post by: Joatmon on May 16, 2009, 05:51:13 pm
Bruce, That is an impressive amount of wear on the top of that base.  Perhaps that was the situation on the machine that I referred to earlier, just too many rounds.  I think that even though the steel is much harder than brass, the endless process of cycling cases (possibly dirty or with a film of grit) would eventually cause significant wear on the base.  Do you think it would be possible to "true up" the top of that plate by removing (possibly by endmill) just a few thousands of an inch of material (5-10)around the perimeter?  Setting the base up on a knee mill with a small rotary table to make the circle would not be too difficult.  I am not aware if this part is hardened prior to assembly.  If the base was heat treated or surface hardened it may be a moot point.   Just curious if this had been considered. 

I also have been intrigued by the prospect of more automation on the Star given that so many companies in the past (now present) have designed aftermarket accessories to speed the process.  I have always wondered why Star did not pursue any of their own designs for this purpose.  They certainly must have had the machinist capability in their shop.  Anyone have inside information about this?
John

Title: Re: moon unit indexer
Post by: rbwillnj on May 16, 2009, 08:34:25 pm
John,   I don't think you could just mill down the surface and have it work.  Remember the primer slide.  If you mill down the surface, the primer slide would probably sit proud of the new surface.   You might be able to weld the worn areas and then mill the welded areas down to match the original surface.   Fortunately, I didn't have to worry about it.   I was able to find another base to use in rebuilding the reloader.  The pictured base has been assigned to the scrap pile.

I have read several accounts about Star and indexers.  From what I have read, Star tested several designs, but elected not to adopt or recommend any of them because of concerns about wear to the base.
Title: Re: moon unit indexer
Post by: Joatmon on May 17, 2009, 11:27:30 am
Bruce, You are right, I was not thinking about the primer slide.  That approach certainly would not work. The only feasible workaround would seem to be base replacement.  What were the indexing characteristics of that machine?  Was it loose at the index points, or hard to rotate with shells in the plate because they would catch at those deep wear areas? 

I am not what you would probably call a high volume reloader (based on the numbers that some competitive shooters are used to), perhaps this will not be a problem that I have to deal with.  I do have a 38 spl progressive that is a bit stiff to index and there is some wear on the top of the plate that I have noticed.  I only comment because another machine next to it has a more smooth and positive feel when hand indexing.  The large locking nut on the main shaft is set to the same level (snug and then back off 1/4 turn).  Sorry if this thread has drifted a bit off topic.
John
Title: Re: moon unit indexer
Post by: Star73 on May 17, 2009, 05:34:08 pm
Bruce,
 Any idea as to the nmber of rounds loaded before wear is experienced in the base?
Thanks,
Ron
Title: Re: moon unit indexer
Post by: rbwillnj on May 17, 2009, 08:26:10 pm
Ron,

No idea on the number of rounds.   It came to me in that condition.  The machine looked to be in good condition otherwise.

Joatman,

With the wear indentations, the rim of the case tends to catch on the depression.  If it gets too bad, you can't advance the shell plate unless you lift the cartridge so that if clears the indentation.   In mild cases, you can use a Dremel with an abrasive wheel (graytex) to smooth out the edge of the indentation so that the rim of the case won't catch on it.

I don't think this is just an indexer issue.   I think it has more to do with volume.   On my personal 45 ACP machine, I probably load 10,000 rounds per year, and I see no wear of this type at all.
Title: Re: moon unit indexer
Post by: Joatmon on May 17, 2009, 08:49:55 pm
Bruce, Thanks for the information and the insight.  I may try a bit of "polishing" like you suggest on the top of the base if I think it is getting to be a problem.  With just a few thousand rounds a year throught this machine I hope that I will not have to deal with it.  I did notice that there was a town name and the initials P.D. on the bottom of the case feeder, so this one may have had some history of loading lots of rounds for some police department.  I think this kind of history associated with the Star reloaders is one of the reasons that I like using them.  Of course I always tend to like using older tools (of any kind!!).  Cheers.

John
Title: Re: moon unit indexer
Post by: Ray Brandes on July 10, 2009, 06:16:33 am
Indexers and kickers are back in stock:
http://www.bullybarrel.ray-vin.com/frindexer.htm (http://www.bullybarrel.ray-vin.com/frindexer.htm)
http://www.bullybarrel.ray-vin.com/frejector.htm (http://www.bullybarrel.ray-vin.com/frejector.htm)
Regards, Ray in FLA
Title: Re: moon unit indexer
Post by: ARTINCT on September 03, 2009, 12:04:36 pm
Hi Gang:
I have just installed both the Moon Unit Indexer and the Moon Unit Case Kicker from Ray Brandes.

To say I am highly pleased with these two products from Ray is a gross understatement.  First off, the web site Ray has fashioned is top notch.  Ray has some Utube videos for each tool.  The case kicker video is top notch and shows installation and adjustment techniques.  The indexer video just shows the indexer at work.  I hope some day Ray can do a full length video of installation and adjustment for that product as well.

The case kicker installed quickly and worked flawlessly almost from the get go on my 45 ACP Star Universal.  A really nice product with a wonderful matte finish in a gray parkerized type patina.

The indexer is just slightly more complex to install and adjust but is well worth the effort.  The index bar only touches or presses against/upon the cartridge case and thus will NOT cause any undo wear or harm to the shell plate.  I just had to adjust the indexer to fully push the case from the resize station to the prime station and this adjustment was rather simple to effect.  The indexer also is finished in the gray matte parkerized finish.  

The only downside of the indexer would possibly be that it would have to be loosened up, taken off and readjusted if you changed machine heads or shell plates or required a major cleaning.  But then that is not really any big deal to be honest with you and it would allow you to clean and lube the indexer.  I now have about 500 rounds of 45 ACP loaded using the indexer and cannot see why I would want to run a Star without one.

I have ordered two more complete systems indexer/kicker systems from Ray for my 9mm and 38 special Stars.

A tip of the old hat to Ray for providing such fine machine tools.  The case kicker is a marvel to watch and the spring mechanism is perfect and ingenious.

Thanks Ray!
Title: Re: moon unit indexer
Post by: shooter2 on May 16, 2011, 11:35:41 am
Does anyone have a moon indexer and a case kicker for sale?
Ray Bandies is out of stock and is not making any more. Call me at 209 887 9184                 Thanks Ed
Title: Re: moon unit indexer
Post by: shooter2 on June 20, 2011, 02:37:22 pm
The people who bought out Ray In Florida contacted me, and informed that the moon indexer is being back on the market.
S&B dist.   1-850-579-0917
Title: Re: moon unit indexer
Post by: dbltapster on June 20, 2011, 08:06:50 pm
Have they mentioned a price?  Just curious.
Title: Re: moon unit indexer
Post by: samstar on June 20, 2011, 10:35:00 pm
They have the prices listed as

$179.95 for the Moon Unit and
$79.95 for the Case Kicker

here is a link to their website http://www.sbsdistributing.com (http://www.sbsdistributing.com)